Persian (?) shamshir.

Sylektis · 23rd February 2020, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.

Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.)

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area.

The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later.

Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais.

Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.

Thank you very much guys for the help you have given me, with your knowledge and experience.
I am uploading the photos that Oliver requested to complete your opinion.
And again I ask, what is your opinion on blade cleaning?

ariel · 23rd February 2020, 08:02 PM

Under normal circumstances, one would soak the blade in oil or DW-40 and then use steel wool.
However, areas of active rust go well beyond Koft areas, and steel wool would remove everything. Moreover, there seems to be rust underneath the koft. Softening of dissolving rust would dislodge it as well.
Soaking and steelwooling distally of Koft might be the main option. Gentle oiling and toothpicking the rust within the Koft area may be the max you can do.

Steelwooling will remove wootz pattern as well, and you will have to re-etch.

Hope that my suggestion is an unnecessarily pessimistic one and other people here have aces up their sleeves which they are willing to share.

motan · 25th February 2020, 08:32 AM

Hi,
I know practically nothing about swords and I respect all the expert opinions on this thread, but still, I want to suggest a different idea.
What if this sword is Syrian/Ottoman in its entirety?
I do not see anything to suggest that parts were made in different periods or places, rather than the discrepancy between the quality of the wootz and the quality of the sword as a whole.
Both the hilt and the blade, as well as the koftgari look Syrian and not Persian to me, mostly because of the lower quality of work. The reason it does not resemble other examples of Ottoman/Badawi swords made in Syria could be that it is simply older than most, which are typically late 19th c and re-hilted blades of different origins. The blade could be made from Indian wootz or from any other wootz blade which was re-worked extensively.
This is purely a hunch, but I thought it might be worth writing.

mariusgmioc · 25th February 2020, 11:44 AM

Regarding the "wootz"... I had a 20th century Khyber knife with EXACTLY the same pattern. Attached are photos of another one that I sold recently. Not very much different from a hunting knife Ivan Kirpichev made for me a few years ago...

Regarding the koftgari... in my oppinion it is definitely not Persian. Also significantly different from Ottoman mainsteam works.
It could be Syrian as Motan suggested, but could be also Afghan or more likely Indian but... definitely not the works of any established centre, but more like "village" works. I am inclined towards Indian, because I had a Tulwar with the same type of koftgari, only of significantly better quality.

Kubur · 25th February 2020, 04:18 PM

Hi Marius
I think we all agree that the koftgari is Syrian or Arab Ottoman.
For me the blade is Persian.
The pommel and the grips are a bit different from the usual bedouins swords but Motan and Oliver might be right.
I have an Arab sword with a Persian blade, it's very common.

25th February 2020, 08:32 AM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	What if? Hi, I know practically nothing about swords and I respect all the expert opinions on this thread, but still, I want to suggest a different idea. What if this sword is Syrian/Ottoman in its entirety? I do not see anything to suggest that parts were made in different periods or places, rather than the discrepancy between the quality of the wootz and the quality of the sword as a whole. Both the hilt and the blade, as well as the koftgari look Syrian and not Persian to me, mostly because of the lower quality of work. The reason it does not resemble other examples of Ottoman/Badawi swords made in Syria could be that it is simply older than most, which are typically late 19th c and re-hilted blades of different origins. The blade could be made from Indian wootz or from any other wootz blade which was re-worked extensively. This is purely a hunch, but I thought it might be worth writing.

25th February 2020, 11:44 AM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Regarding the "wootz"... I had a 20th century Khyber knife with EXACTLY the same pattern. Attached are photos of another one that I sold recently. Not very much different from a hunting knife Ivan Kirpichev made for me a few years ago... Regarding the koftgari... in my oppinion it is definitely not Persian. Also significantly different from Ottoman mainsteam works. It could be Syrian as Motan suggested, but could be also Afghan or more likely Indian but... definitely not the works of any established centre, but more like "village" works. I am inclined towards Indian, because I had a Tulwar with the same type of koftgari, only of significantly better quality. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 25th February 2020 at 02:39 PM.

23rd February 2020, 08:02 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under normal circumstances, one would soak the blade in oil or DW-40 and then use steel wool. However, areas of active rust go well beyond Koft areas, and steel wool would remove everything. Moreover, there seems to be rust underneath the koft. Softening of dissolving rust would dislodge it as well. Soaking and steelwooling distally of Koft might be the main option. Gentle oiling and toothpicking the rust within the Koft area may be the max you can do. Steelwooling will remove wootz pattern as well, and you will have to re-etch. Hope that my suggestion is an unnecessarily pessimistic one and other people here have aces up their sleeves which they are willing to share.

25th February 2020, 04:18 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Marius I think we all agree that the koftgari is Syrian or Arab Ottoman. For me the blade is Persian. The pommel and the grips are a bit different from the usual bedouins swords but Motan and Oliver might be right. I have an Arab sword with a Persian blade, it's very common.