Metal Balinese hilt with sheath

apolaki · 22nd February 2020, 04:02 PM

Hi Marco and Kai, is this the wooden style hilts being referred to? Is it a Balinese or Javanese/Madura craft in the style of Balinese?

And Jean, I will get to the other questions about the ganja as soon as possible. I am cleaning the blade. It looks like someone took an electric grinder to it because there are striation marks throughout. It is currently bathing in a less than 5% vinegar & water solution. (Incidently, I really fear I messed up cleaning a moro kris using just straight 5% vinegar, so I am really cautious using vinegar now).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I wasn't referring to those wooden free-style hilts, Marco.

I meant the "golden/jewelled" brass-clad hilts produced near Yogya.

However, I also don't have any pic handy - maybe we should start a hall of shame...

Regards,
Kai

Marcokeris · 22nd February 2020, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hi Marco and Kai, is this the wooden style hilts being referred to? Is it a Balinese or Javanese craft in the style of Balinese?

And Jean, I will get to the other questions about the ganja as soon as possible. I am cleaning the blade. It looks like someone took an electric grinder to it because there are striation marks throughout. It is currently bathing in a less than 5% vinegar & water solution. (Incidently, I really fear I messed up cleaning a moro kris using just straight 5% vinegar, so I am really cautious using vinegar now).

IMO this is a wooden Maduran (Javenese or Balinese )hilt made for the big tourist shopping centers in Kuta .... like Matahari

Battara · 22nd February 2020, 05:16 PM

An observation:

Brass is much harder to work versus copper, silver, or gold. Great detail can be made through these other metals. But brass, even when very thin, can be worked in detail, but not the detail or finesse than what I have seen in the other metals. This includes when the hilt is filled with resin and not wood.

I also base this on personal experience working with all of these metals, including the very thin sheets for repousse.

Thus I am not surprised that the lower work I have seen has been in the cheapest metal of brass (though I have seen some low work in silver as well).

apolaki · 22nd February 2020, 06:50 PM

Hi Battara,

So do you think this metal hilt is brass? If so, was it executed finely if brass is harder to work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

An observation:

Brass is much harder to work versus copper, silver, or gold. Great detail can be made through these other metals. But brass, even when very thin, can be worked in detail, but not the detail or finesse than what I have seen in the other metals. This includes when the hilt is filled with resin and not wood.

I also base this on personal experience working with all of these metals, including the very thin sheets for repousse.

Thus I am not surprised that the lower work I have seen has been in the cheapest metal of brass (though I have seen some low work in silver as well).

Battara · 23rd February 2020, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hi Battara,

So do you think this metal hilt is brass? If so, was it executed finely if brass is harder to work?

Actually just the opposite. One can hammer in more details into softer metal than harder metal like brass. Again this observation and personal experience in metalworking.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd February 2020, 08:36 PM

GIO, I think you might be half right.

The forging from which we carve a keris blade is left quite thick & heavy, the pesi is cut square and reduced little by little, not necessarily all at the same time.

It could be that this blade was a failure:- the original billet was made too small, the forging could not be left at adequate thickness to carve a proper blade from, so rather than waste the money that was already in it, it was turned into something to keep some halfway pretty dress together.

It would serve quite OK for a poor man's marriage keris.

So not something that was part-way through manufacture and that could eventually end up as an actual keris, but something that was a failure of manufacture.

Based upon what I can see in the images, this blade was not shaped with an electric grinder, but with a file. grinders tend to leave uninterrupted curved lines, the lines on this blade are straight and in some places form a hatch-work effect.

GIO · 24th February 2020, 04:42 PM

Alan, I fully agree with you. I didn't take into consideration the small size which could be evaluated in relation with the size of the hilt. Such small size would have made impossible to carve the blade correctly.

David · 22nd February 2020, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hi Marco and Kai, is this the wooden style hilts being referred to? Is it a Balinese or Javanese/Madura craft in the style of Balinese?

And Jean, I will get to the other questions about the ganja as soon as possible. I am cleaning the blade. It looks like someone took an electric grinder to it because there are striation marks throughout. It is currently bathing in a less than 5% vinegar & water solution. (Incidently, I really fear I messed up cleaning a moro kris using just straight 5% vinegar, so I am really cautious using vinegar now).

I would need to see more photos and dimensions on this hilt would be helpful, but this polychrome wooden hilt that you have just shown us i would take as a Bali hilt. I have never seen anything like that coming from Jawa or Madura.

David · 22nd February 2020, 08:24 PM

BTW, here is my own Bali "Bayu" style hilt. It is also brass with the remnants of an gold wash still evident. I would call it a middle quality example, perhaps a little better than the one you present, but no where near the court level hilts that these emulate. I believe most, if not all the "stones" on this hilt are glass. Again, in Bali this is not a big deal. Yes, high end court pieces will most likely have some real gemstones on them, but they are also likely to have a few glass and paste "stones" right in there with the rest. In Bali it is the over all visual affect that is more important than the value of individual gemstones.

23rd February 2020, 08:36 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	GIO, I think you might be half right. The forging from which we carve a keris blade is left quite thick & heavy, the pesi is cut square and reduced little by little, not necessarily all at the same time. It could be that this blade was a failure:- the original billet was made too small, the forging could not be left at adequate thickness to carve a proper blade from, so rather than waste the money that was already in it, it was turned into something to keep some halfway pretty dress together. It would serve quite OK for a poor man's marriage keris. So not something that was part-way through manufacture and that could eventually end up as an actual keris, but something that was a failure of manufacture. Based upon what I can see in the images, this blade was not shaped with an electric grinder, but with a file. grinders tend to leave uninterrupted curved lines, the lines on this blade are straight and in some places form a hatch-work effect. Attached Images

22nd February 2020, 08:24 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	BTW, here is my own Bali "Bayu" style hilt. It is also brass with the remnants of an gold wash still evident. I would call it a middle quality example, perhaps a little better than the one you present, but no where near the court level hilts that these emulate. I believe most, if not all the "stones" on this hilt are glass. Again, in Bali this is not a big deal. Yes, high end court pieces will most likely have some real gemstones on them, but they are also likely to have a few glass and paste "stones" right in there with the rest. In Bali it is the over all visual affect that is more important than the value of individual gemstones. Attached Images

22nd February 2020, 05:16 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	An observation: Brass is much harder to work versus copper, silver, or gold. Great detail can be made through these other metals. But brass, even when very thin, can be worked in detail, but not the detail or finesse than what I have seen in the other metals. This includes when the hilt is filled with resin and not wood. I also base this on personal experience working with all of these metals, including the very thin sheets for repousse. Thus I am not surprised that the lower work I have seen has been in the cheapest metal of brass (though I have seen some low work in silver as well).

24th February 2020, 04:42 PM	#7
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	Alan, I fully agree with you. I didn't take into consideration the small size which could be evaluated in relation with the size of the hilt. Such small size would have made impossible to carve the blade correctly.