Yataghan translation

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Please explain to us why these mounts are Greek do you have any proof??
Silver work is not always Greek, do you have any particular element to say that?
Its funny, there is nothing wrong to change his mind...

Do we have to post multiple examples of Greek weapons with similar decorative style every time we have this argument? Seems a little tedious and counter productive, as you are stubbornly going to stick to your panturkic beliefs anyway.

For those actually interested in the decoration as a method of identifying where arms were used, Sylektis has done all the work with pictures from various Greek museums:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...t=greek+museum

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...t=greek+museum

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...t=greek+museum

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...t=greek+museum

Everyone is free to compare the style of the museum items with the mounts of the yataghan in this thread and make their own conclusions.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

Everyone is free to compare the style of the museum items with the mounts of the yataghan in this thread and make their own conclusions.

The fact those weapons are displayed in Greek museums only means they were collected in Greece, but by no means can it be seen as evidence they were ALL made in Greece.

After all, the Ottoman army didn't conquer Greece with sticks, nor did it invade Greece to get a source of decent weaponry...

And the Balkans did became a known source of weaponry only after the Ottoman occupation, not before that.

And what about examples from Turkish museums?! Where are they?!

What about a well documented book about Turkish swordsmiths and their style, markings, etc?!

There isn't any?!

So then, in the absence of evidence we embrace the evidence of absence...

... and so, falacies are propagated and spread until they become the well known truth...

PS: If you read the captions from the museum exhibits, you may notice most say "weapons USED during Greek revolution..." not weapons MADE in Greece. However, some display quite clear Greek characteristics, being undoubtedly made in Greece while others look 100% Turkish...

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The fact those weapons are displayed in Greek museums only means they were collected in Greece, but by no means can it be seen as evidence they were ALL made in Greece.

If multiple similarly decorated weapons were all collected within the same geographic area, does not that establish a distribution pattern?

As for the made vs. used debate, would you consider takoubas with the typical tripple fuller Solingen made blades as swords from the Sahel, or from Germany?

[Kubur]

Ok now let's be serious with facts
The only argument is the silver hilt and scabbard.
Silver work repousse was used by Ottomans not only in Greece, but also in Algeria and primary in Turkey.
Yes you have Greek yataghans with silver repousse, yes the work is of a very high quality. But the design and the patterns are very different from the ones made in Turkey.
You need to look at daggers and bichaq too.
If you don't see the differences then I can't do nothing for you.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Silver work repousse was used by Ottomans not only in Greece, but also in Algeria

Correct - arms produced in Epirus were exported to North Africa, as Elgood mentions.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

If multiple similarly decorated weapons were all collected within the same geographic area, does not that establish a distribution pattern?

As for the made vs. used debate, would you consider takoubas with the typical tripple fuller Solingen made blades as swords from the Sahel, or from Germany?

Yes, it is exactly as you said: it establishes a DISTRIBUTION pattern but is not providing information about their origin.

If you find many WWII German weapons in Russia and see a massive amount of them in Russian museums, does this mean they were made in Russia?! In fact, even these days you may find lots of German rusty weapons in the area around present day Volgograd (formerly Stalingrad)... so can we conclude that Stalingrad was a major centre for manufacturing German weapons?!

Going a little bit further in time... the numerous Viking swords in English museums do indicate that they were made in England?

As the Ottoman army invaded the Balkans and Greece, they were accompanied by numerous Turkish swordsmiths necessary for ensuring the maintenance of their weapons.
As the Ottomans established local garrisons in the occupied areas, so they established local centres of swordmaking....

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Going a little bit further in time... the numerous Viking swords in English museums do indicate that they were made in England?

You are bringing up a great point - the so called Viking swords were not made in Britain, where they were used by both Norsemen and Saxons, and they were not made in Scandinavia either. They were made by Frankish smiths (some even suggest it was Frankish monks) along the Rhineland. Yet we refer to these swords as Viking and not Frankish. Blades were traded far and wide, but mounts tend to reflect local tastes and provide more information about the actual users.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

You are bringing up a great point - the so called Viking swords were not made in Britain, where they were used by both Norsemen and Saxons, and they were not made in Scandinavia either. They were made by Frankish smiths (some even suggest it was Frankish monks) along the Rhineland. Yet we refer to these swords as Viking and not Frankish. Blades were traded far and wide, but mounts tend to reflect local tastes and provide more information about the actual users.

Exactly!

[Sylektis]

To begin with, it should be noted that at that time, Greece did not exist. However, there were Ottomans of Greek descent, very good at their job. They were located throughout the Ottoman territory, in some villages even as the Kallarites of Epirus almost 100% of the inhabitants were silversmiths. (The VULGARI international house for example started there.) Unfortunately, though we have a multitude of silverware in monasteries with their manufacturers' signatures, this is not the case with everyday objects such as weapons, jewelry, etc.
Thus, we cannot safely attribute the Nationality of an object, especially before 1821, when the Greek Revolution began. It may not sound scientific at all, but only with the experience of visiting as many museums as possible in the areas of the former Ottoman Empire can we attribute (always with probability) an object to Greek, Turkish, Albanian, Montenegrin or Armenian craftsman.
In this case, the photos do not help in any comparison, but I do not think the manufacturer of the scabbard is a Greek one.