Watering on a tulwar blade

B.I · 24th January 2005, 10:05 PM

jens,
a few questions -
on the 'bird-like' design on the yemen, the highlighted bird and the islamic script seem to be different colours. is this the flash of your camera, or are they of different coloured gold (sometimes done on higher brade pieces to give contrast).
the hilt, how is the gold put on. is the floral relief steel, highlighted in gold. is it copper inlayed and gilt? i doubt it could be gold inlay as the relief seems very high, and so the amount of gold needed would be tremendous.
a weak magnet would tell whether a non-ferrous metal was inlayed under the gold, or any wear on the gold may offer a clue. i would guess it was well chisselled steel overlayed in gold but only you can tell. the more you look at the hilt, the more intriguing it becomes. the blade is of such quality that you tend to almost forget the hilt, which easily seems of the same grade in quality.

Jeff D · 25th January 2005, 03:33 AM

Hi Jim,

Venetian? I was thinking more along these flourishes seen on 18th century Turkish kilics, as seen on a recent aquisition of mine below. Thank you for the references I will look into it more.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2005, 01:43 PM

Hi Jim,
When you cover a thread, you always cover the whole area, with references and all – thank you very much.

Then to the questions. The decoration on the yelman is made in the same gold colour as the writing.
Armed with a magnet and a magnifying glass, it is obvious to the onlooker, me, that the hilt is made of steel, cut in relief, hammered very finely to get a rough surface, covered in thick gold leaf, which have been hammered to the surface, in this cast the maker has used quite a lot of gold. There is no copper on the hilt. On the disc you can see where a thick piece of gold wire is missing. Have a look at the attached.

It is a nice blade you are showing Jeff, although I suppose it is longer.

tom hyle · 25th January 2005, 02:19 PM

Is that an applied spine, Jeff? Does it appear to be soldered or welded to the blade, or to be ground and chiselled from a thicked piece that was wrapped around the spine and welded? Can you tell? Nice. This has been a real good thread for photos. I think the yelman in Europe and the Yelman in Hind are both coming from Tartaric influence.

Jeff D · 25th January 2005, 03:27 PM

Hi Jens,

I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours.
Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2005, 07:49 PM

Thank you for your interest Jeff.
One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.

Battara · 25th January 2005, 10:19 PM

Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.

25th January 2005, 03:33 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Venetian? I was thinking more along these flourishes seen on 18th century Turkish kilics, as seen on a recent aquisition of mine below. Thank you for the references I will look into it more. Jeff Attached Images

25th January 2005, 01:43 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, When you cover a thread, you always cover the whole area, with references and all – thank you very much. Then to the questions. The decoration on the yelman is made in the same gold colour as the writing. Armed with a magnet and a magnifying glass, it is obvious to the onlooker, me, that the hilt is made of steel, cut in relief, hammered very finely to get a rough surface, covered in thick gold leaf, which have been hammered to the surface, in this cast the maker has used quite a lot of gold. There is no copper on the hilt. On the disc you can see where a thick piece of gold wire is missing. Have a look at the attached. It is a nice blade you are showing Jeff, although I suppose it is longer. Attached Images

24th January 2005, 10:05 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jens, a few questions - on the 'bird-like' design on the yemen, the highlighted bird and the islamic script seem to be different colours. is this the flash of your camera, or are they of different coloured gold (sometimes done on higher brade pieces to give contrast). the hilt, how is the gold put on. is the floral relief steel, highlighted in gold. is it copper inlayed and gilt? i doubt it could be gold inlay as the relief seems very high, and so the amount of gold needed would be tremendous. a weak magnet would tell whether a non-ferrous metal was inlayed under the gold, or any wear on the gold may offer a clue. i would guess it was well chisselled steel overlayed in gold but only you can tell. the more you look at the hilt, the more intriguing it becomes. the blade is of such quality that you tend to almost forget the hilt, which easily seems of the same grade in quality.

25th January 2005, 02:19 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is that an applied spine, Jeff? Does it appear to be soldered or welded to the blade, or to be ground and chiselled from a thicked piece that was wrapped around the spine and welded? Can you tell? Nice. This has been a real good thread for photos. I think the yelman in Europe and the Yelman in Hind are both coming from Tartaric influence.

25th January 2005, 03:27 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jens, I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours. Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished. Jeff

25th January 2005, 07:49 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your interest Jeff. One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.

25th January 2005, 10:19 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.