Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

Jens Nordlunde · 24th December 2019, 03:41 PM

I am with Ariel. I dont think the cup disc has ever been closed.

Although it is a different hilt type see also my catalogue pp. 321-323 - picture attached.
From left to right, NW India/Afghanistan 17th century, Afghanistan 17th top early 18th century and Afghanistan late 18th to early 19th century.

ariel · 24th December 2019, 08:02 PM

Jens,
Thanks for the examples!
Your first one ( brass) also seems to have been rather crudely cast; not as bad as mine, but still...
I just noticed another similarity between the two: the widened part of the grip is asymmetrically shifted toward the pommel. I looked at all my pulwars and all of them had it located in the midsection of the grip. Also, crenellated lower langets.
Was it a chancy coincidence, a “ signature” of a particular caster, or an early pattern ?
Curiousier and curiousier.....

Battara · 25th December 2019, 01:52 AM

Gentlemen, Kai is correct. Let us stay on topic and DITCH THE PERSONAL INSULTS!

ariel · 26th December 2019, 08:49 PM

Just to add fuel to the discussion:-)

Here are 2 sabers. Both have thickly-patinated " tulwar" handles, but with a twist: their pommels are cup-like without lids. Both have crude fleuret terminals of their quillons. The upper one has no pin through the quillon bloc, but the lower one does.
The blade of the upper one is typically Afghani, the lower one - likely Afghani, but may conceivably be of NW Indian origin. No evidence of newer mastique, it is pretty crumbled and some of it is lost in both cases. Very ( very!) cautiously I would conclude that the entire handle/blade assemblies are original or at the very least belong to the working life of these sabers.

Overall, my interpretation:
-both are most likely old Afghani swords. Judging by the fleuret-like quillons, they may be 18 century ( See discussion of Jens' example from his book, p. 321 and its picture posted by him).

Are they, as well as my earlier example with brass handle, predecessors of the full-blown Pulwar pommel?

Battara · 27th December 2019, 04:59 AM

Thanks for posting these Ariel. I know that the cupped parts of Indonesian piso pedangs come from Indian influence like these.

ariel · 27th December 2019, 04:35 PM

Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati).
BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us.

Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.

Battara · 27th December 2019, 07:38 PM

I stand corrected and I think your spelling is the correct one - piso podang.

Thanks for catching that one .

24th December 2019, 03:41 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am with Ariel. I dont think the cup disc has ever been closed. Although it is a different hilt type see also my catalogue pp. 321-323 - picture attached. From left to right, NW India/Afghanistan 17th century, Afghanistan 17th top early 18th century and Afghanistan late 18th to early 19th century. Attached Images

24th December 2019, 08:02 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Thanks for the examples! Your first one ( brass) also seems to have been rather crudely cast; not as bad as mine, but still... I just noticed another similarity between the two: the widened part of the grip is asymmetrically shifted toward the pommel. I looked at all my pulwars and all of them had it located in the midsection of the grip. Also, crenellated lower langets. Was it a chancy coincidence, a “ signature” of a particular caster, or an early pattern ? Curiousier and curiousier..... Last edited by ariel; 24th December 2019 at 08:19 PM.

26th December 2019, 08:49 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just to add fuel to the discussion:-) Here are 2 sabers. Both have thickly-patinated " tulwar" handles, but with a twist: their pommels are cup-like without lids. Both have crude fleuret terminals of their quillons. The upper one has no pin through the quillon bloc, but the lower one does. The blade of the upper one is typically Afghani, the lower one - likely Afghani, but may conceivably be of NW Indian origin. No evidence of newer mastique, it is pretty crumbled and some of it is lost in both cases. Very ( very!) cautiously I would conclude that the entire handle/blade assemblies are original or at the very least belong to the working life of these sabers. Overall, my interpretation: -both are most likely old Afghani swords. Judging by the fleuret-like quillons, they may be 18 century ( See discussion of Jens' example from his book, p. 321 and its picture posted by him). Are they, as well as my earlier example with brass handle, predecessors of the full-blown Pulwar pommel? Attached Images

25th December 2019, 01:52 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	Gentlemen, Kai is correct. Let us stay on topic and DITCH THE PERSONAL INSULTS!

27th December 2019, 04:59 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	Thanks for posting these Ariel. I know that the cupped parts of Indonesian piso pedangs come from Indian influence like these.

27th December 2019, 04:35 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati). BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us. Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.

27th December 2019, 07:38 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	I stand corrected and I think your spelling is the correct one - piso podang. Thanks for catching that one .