Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

kai · 24th December 2019, 01:01 PM

Please let’s get back to discussing this sword!

Sorry, Ariel, no informed contribution from me either since this is not my area of expertise if any. It certainly looks like a good ol’ warrior who could tell a bunch of stories!

Any signs of the lost wax casting remaining with this hilt? The guard does look typical. BTW, any idea which mythical creature is associated with this type by Afghan ethnic groups or possibly cultures elsewhere?

Considering that the open cup most likely is the original design, it is amazing how rare genuine examples appear to be extant while their descendants are pretty common on Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula.

The blade seems to exhibit the pretty crude craftsmanship often seen with Afghani blade decor. Any signs on the hardness of the steel when you cleaned the blade?

Regards,
Kai

ariel · 24th December 2019, 03:21 PM

Kai,
I really do not know what are the specific signs of the lost wax casting I should be looking for:-(( But it was cast, no doubt, very basic work, kind of “ village level”.

Generally, the ends of downturned quillons on Afghani/Persian hilts are associated with dragons.
The blade is hard. Also, look at the second pic( handle with intact langet): there is a small part of the edge that “crumbled out” after some mechanical stress( a blow?). Thus, the steel is quite brittle, and that was yet another hint of the wootz nature of the blade.

The “open cup” design was first shown among the mid- 16 century illustrations for Hamzanama commissioned by Akbar. It was indeed considered extinct , but for the only surviving example belonging to Brian Isaac and illustrated by Elgood in his “Hindu” book. It indeed looks just like Piso Podang. However, similar idea was preserved in NW India, albeit with more shallow cups. The example from Jens’ collection ( see above), also from brass ( correct pages 321-323, sorry for the earlier mistake) is one of them, and I have several simpler ones. They are difficult to differentiate from the Afghani, but the close connections between the two areas are well known.

And yes, it is old. The broken langet was fixed for continuous use and the grip of the hilt is polished bright by the hand(s) of the owner(s). Even incised decorations on the grip are almost completely extinct, with only bits and pieces left over.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th December 2019, 03:41 PM

I am with Ariel. I dont think the cup disc has ever been closed.

Although it is a different hilt type see also my catalogue pp. 321-323 - picture attached.
From left to right, NW India/Afghanistan 17th century, Afghanistan 17th top early 18th century and Afghanistan late 18th to early 19th century.

ariel · 24th December 2019, 08:02 PM

Jens,
Thanks for the examples!
Your first one ( brass) also seems to have been rather crudely cast; not as bad as mine, but still...
I just noticed another similarity between the two: the widened part of the grip is asymmetrically shifted toward the pommel. I looked at all my pulwars and all of them had it located in the midsection of the grip. Also, crenellated lower langets.
Was it a chancy coincidence, a “ signature” of a particular caster, or an early pattern ?
Curiousier and curiousier.....

Battara · 25th December 2019, 01:52 AM

Gentlemen, Kai is correct. Let us stay on topic and DITCH THE PERSONAL INSULTS!

ariel · 26th December 2019, 08:49 PM

Just to add fuel to the discussion:-)

Here are 2 sabers. Both have thickly-patinated " tulwar" handles, but with a twist: their pommels are cup-like without lids. Both have crude fleuret terminals of their quillons. The upper one has no pin through the quillon bloc, but the lower one does.
The blade of the upper one is typically Afghani, the lower one - likely Afghani, but may conceivably be of NW Indian origin. No evidence of newer mastique, it is pretty crumbled and some of it is lost in both cases. Very ( very!) cautiously I would conclude that the entire handle/blade assemblies are original or at the very least belong to the working life of these sabers.

Overall, my interpretation:
-both are most likely old Afghani swords. Judging by the fleuret-like quillons, they may be 18 century ( See discussion of Jens' example from his book, p. 321 and its picture posted by him).

Are they, as well as my earlier example with brass handle, predecessors of the full-blown Pulwar pommel?

Battara · 27th December 2019, 04:59 AM

Thanks for posting these Ariel. I know that the cupped parts of Indonesian piso pedangs come from Indian influence like these.

ariel · 27th December 2019, 04:35 PM

Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati).
BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us.

Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.

24th December 2019, 03:21 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kai, I really do not know what are the specific signs of the lost wax casting I should be looking for:-(( But it was cast, no doubt, very basic work, kind of “ village level”. Generally, the ends of downturned quillons on Afghani/Persian hilts are associated with dragons. The blade is hard. Also, look at the second pic( handle with intact langet): there is a small part of the edge that “crumbled out” after some mechanical stress( a blow?). Thus, the steel is quite brittle, and that was yet another hint of the wootz nature of the blade. The “open cup” design was first shown among the mid- 16 century illustrations for Hamzanama commissioned by Akbar. It was indeed considered extinct , but for the only surviving example belonging to Brian Isaac and illustrated by Elgood in his “Hindu” book. It indeed looks just like Piso Podang. However, similar idea was preserved in NW India, albeit with more shallow cups. The example from Jens’ collection ( see above), also from brass ( correct pages 321-323, sorry for the earlier mistake) is one of them, and I have several simpler ones. They are difficult to differentiate from the Afghani, but the close connections between the two areas are well known. And yes, it is old. The broken langet was fixed for continuous use and the grip of the hilt is polished bright by the hand(s) of the owner(s). Even incised decorations on the grip are almost completely extinct, with only bits and pieces left over. Last edited by ariel; 24th December 2019 at 07:40 PM.

24th December 2019, 03:41 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am with Ariel. I dont think the cup disc has ever been closed. Although it is a different hilt type see also my catalogue pp. 321-323 - picture attached. From left to right, NW India/Afghanistan 17th century, Afghanistan 17th top early 18th century and Afghanistan late 18th to early 19th century. Attached Images

24th December 2019, 08:02 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Thanks for the examples! Your first one ( brass) also seems to have been rather crudely cast; not as bad as mine, but still... I just noticed another similarity between the two: the widened part of the grip is asymmetrically shifted toward the pommel. I looked at all my pulwars and all of them had it located in the midsection of the grip. Also, crenellated lower langets. Was it a chancy coincidence, a “ signature” of a particular caster, or an early pattern ? Curiousier and curiousier..... Last edited by ariel; 24th December 2019 at 08:19 PM.

26th December 2019, 08:49 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just to add fuel to the discussion:-) Here are 2 sabers. Both have thickly-patinated " tulwar" handles, but with a twist: their pommels are cup-like without lids. Both have crude fleuret terminals of their quillons. The upper one has no pin through the quillon bloc, but the lower one does. The blade of the upper one is typically Afghani, the lower one - likely Afghani, but may conceivably be of NW Indian origin. No evidence of newer mastique, it is pretty crumbled and some of it is lost in both cases. Very ( very!) cautiously I would conclude that the entire handle/blade assemblies are original or at the very least belong to the working life of these sabers. Overall, my interpretation: -both are most likely old Afghani swords. Judging by the fleuret-like quillons, they may be 18 century ( See discussion of Jens' example from his book, p. 321 and its picture posted by him). Are they, as well as my earlier example with brass handle, predecessors of the full-blown Pulwar pommel? Attached Images

24th December 2019, 01:01 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Please let’s get back to discussing this sword! Sorry, Ariel, no informed contribution from me either since this is not my area of expertise if any. It certainly looks like a good ol’ warrior who could tell a bunch of stories! Any signs of the lost wax casting remaining with this hilt? The guard does look typical. BTW, any idea which mythical creature is associated with this type by Afghan ethnic groups or possibly cultures elsewhere? Considering that the open cup most likely is the original design, it is amazing how rare genuine examples appear to be extant while their descendants are pretty common on Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula. The blade seems to exhibit the pretty crude craftsmanship often seen with Afghani blade decor. Any signs on the hardness of the steel when you cleaned the blade? Regards, Kai

25th December 2019, 01:52 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	Gentlemen, Kai is correct. Let us stay on topic and DITCH THE PERSONAL INSULTS!

27th December 2019, 04:59 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,323	Thanks for posting these Ariel. I know that the cupped parts of Indonesian piso pedangs come from Indian influence like these.

27th December 2019, 04:35 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati). BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us. Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.