Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

mahratt · 24th December 2019, 04:18 AM

I don't need be concerned

This is not my sword. And I do not need to try to prove to anyone rarity this sword

I respect the opinion of Robert Elgood. But I think that only the psychic who sees the past can accurately state where and when the hilt of this sword was made. One can only speculate, paying attention to some signs) By the way, Robert Elgood did not tell you in which his book we will see your unique sword?

ariel · 24th December 2019, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I respect the opinion of Robert Elgood. But I think that only the psychic who sees the past can accurately state where and when the hilt of this sword was made.

Pity you cannot carefully read and comprehend his books: that’s exactly what he does.

Well, now can I get an informed and intelligent opinion from the Forumites?

mahratt · 24th December 2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Pity you cannot carefully read and comprehend his books: that’s exactly what he does.

Don’t worry) It’s good enough to pay a professional translator and you can read any book that interests you. The main thing is not to be greedy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, now can I get an informed and intelligent opinion from the Forumites?

It is strange to wait for an answer to a question that you yourself answered a month ago. Probably these are signs of age. Sclerosis?

You have not answered my question: Robert Elgood did not tell you in which his book we will see your unique sword?

kai · 24th December 2019, 01:01 PM

Please let’s get back to discussing this sword!

Sorry, Ariel, no informed contribution from me either since this is not my area of expertise if any. It certainly looks like a good ol’ warrior who could tell a bunch of stories!

Any signs of the lost wax casting remaining with this hilt? The guard does look typical. BTW, any idea which mythical creature is associated with this type by Afghan ethnic groups or possibly cultures elsewhere?

Considering that the open cup most likely is the original design, it is amazing how rare genuine examples appear to be extant while their descendants are pretty common on Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula.

The blade seems to exhibit the pretty crude craftsmanship often seen with Afghani blade decor. Any signs on the hardness of the steel when you cleaned the blade?

Regards,
Kai

ariel · 24th December 2019, 03:21 PM

Kai,
I really do not know what are the specific signs of the lost wax casting I should be looking for:-(( But it was cast, no doubt, very basic work, kind of “ village level”.

Generally, the ends of downturned quillons on Afghani/Persian hilts are associated with dragons.
The blade is hard. Also, look at the second pic( handle with intact langet): there is a small part of the edge that “crumbled out” after some mechanical stress( a blow?). Thus, the steel is quite brittle, and that was yet another hint of the wootz nature of the blade.

The “open cup” design was first shown among the mid- 16 century illustrations for Hamzanama commissioned by Akbar. It was indeed considered extinct , but for the only surviving example belonging to Brian Isaac and illustrated by Elgood in his “Hindu” book. It indeed looks just like Piso Podang. However, similar idea was preserved in NW India, albeit with more shallow cups. The example from Jens’ collection ( see above), also from brass ( correct pages 321-323, sorry for the earlier mistake) is one of them, and I have several simpler ones. They are difficult to differentiate from the Afghani, but the close connections between the two areas are well known.

And yes, it is old. The broken langet was fixed for continuous use and the grip of the hilt is polished bright by the hand(s) of the owner(s). Even incised decorations on the grip are almost completely extinct, with only bits and pieces left over.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th December 2019, 03:41 PM

I am with Ariel. I dont think the cup disc has ever been closed.

Although it is a different hilt type see also my catalogue pp. 321-323 - picture attached.
From left to right, NW India/Afghanistan 17th century, Afghanistan 17th top early 18th century and Afghanistan late 18th to early 19th century.

ariel · 24th December 2019, 08:02 PM

Jens,
Thanks for the examples!
Your first one ( brass) also seems to have been rather crudely cast; not as bad as mine, but still...
I just noticed another similarity between the two: the widened part of the grip is asymmetrically shifted toward the pommel. I looked at all my pulwars and all of them had it located in the midsection of the grip. Also, crenellated lower langets.
Was it a chancy coincidence, a “ signature” of a particular caster, or an early pattern ?
Curiousier and curiousier.....

Battara · 25th December 2019, 01:52 AM

Gentlemen, Kai is correct. Let us stay on topic and DITCH THE PERSONAL INSULTS!

24th December 2019, 03:21 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kai, I really do not know what are the specific signs of the lost wax casting I should be looking for:-(( But it was cast, no doubt, very basic work, kind of “ village level”. Generally, the ends of downturned quillons on Afghani/Persian hilts are associated with dragons. The blade is hard. Also, look at the second pic( handle with intact langet): there is a small part of the edge that “crumbled out” after some mechanical stress( a blow?). Thus, the steel is quite brittle, and that was yet another hint of the wootz nature of the blade. The “open cup” design was first shown among the mid- 16 century illustrations for Hamzanama commissioned by Akbar. It was indeed considered extinct , but for the only surviving example belonging to Brian Isaac and illustrated by Elgood in his “Hindu” book. It indeed looks just like Piso Podang. However, similar idea was preserved in NW India, albeit with more shallow cups. The example from Jens’ collection ( see above), also from brass ( correct pages 321-323, sorry for the earlier mistake) is one of them, and I have several simpler ones. They are difficult to differentiate from the Afghani, but the close connections between the two areas are well known. And yes, it is old. The broken langet was fixed for continuous use and the grip of the hilt is polished bright by the hand(s) of the owner(s). Even incised decorations on the grip are almost completely extinct, with only bits and pieces left over. Last edited by ariel; 24th December 2019 at 07:40 PM.

24th December 2019, 03:41 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am with Ariel. I dont think the cup disc has ever been closed. Although it is a different hilt type see also my catalogue pp. 321-323 - picture attached. From left to right, NW India/Afghanistan 17th century, Afghanistan 17th top early 18th century and Afghanistan late 18th to early 19th century. Attached Images

24th December 2019, 08:02 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Thanks for the examples! Your first one ( brass) also seems to have been rather crudely cast; not as bad as mine, but still... I just noticed another similarity between the two: the widened part of the grip is asymmetrically shifted toward the pommel. I looked at all my pulwars and all of them had it located in the midsection of the grip. Also, crenellated lower langets. Was it a chancy coincidence, a “ signature” of a particular caster, or an early pattern ? Curiousier and curiousier..... Last edited by ariel; 24th December 2019 at 08:19 PM.

24th December 2019, 04:18 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I don't need be concerned This is not my sword. And I do not need to try to prove to anyone rarity this sword I respect the opinion of Robert Elgood. But I think that only the psychic who sees the past can accurately state where and when the hilt of this sword was made. One can only speculate, paying attention to some signs) By the way, Robert Elgood did not tell you in which his book we will see your unique sword?

24th December 2019, 01:01 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Please let’s get back to discussing this sword! Sorry, Ariel, no informed contribution from me either since this is not my area of expertise if any. It certainly looks like a good ol’ warrior who could tell a bunch of stories! Any signs of the lost wax casting remaining with this hilt? The guard does look typical. BTW, any idea which mythical creature is associated with this type by Afghan ethnic groups or possibly cultures elsewhere? Considering that the open cup most likely is the original design, it is amazing how rare genuine examples appear to be extant while their descendants are pretty common on Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula. The blade seems to exhibit the pretty crude craftsmanship often seen with Afghani blade decor. Any signs on the hardness of the steel when you cleaned the blade? Regards, Kai

25th December 2019, 01:52 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Gentlemen, Kai is correct. Let us stay on topic and DITCH THE PERSONAL INSULTS!