North American Indian knife

Martin Lubojacky · 28th October 2019, 03:27 PM

Please, could anybody advise which tribe and how old the knife could be ? Souvenier or real tool ?
My idea is either Eastern Plains Sioux or Assiniboin style of the sheath (???). I bought it in Europe.

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2019, 09:54 PM

While I am certainly no authority on American Indian weapons or items, I am really glad to see them brought up here for discussion. From all I can find, the diagonal geometrics and general design of the scabbard here does correspond to Plains tribes and of the Sioux spectrum of associated tribes.
The Assiniboine are a Siouxan inclusion (known also as Nakota) and similar designs found in their material culture.

The handle appears to be a badger jaw bone, which seems to have been used in these smaller knives. The bead work appears to be the smaller type which came into Indian trade from Czechoslavakia in latter 19th c. but the colors are unusual, and seem particularly vibrant.

The blade seems of course typical of knives present in these times worn as belt knives for utility usually, skinning etc. Contrary to popular belief, the knife was never a primary weapon, nor favored means of fighting for Indian warriors.

The fact that the back of the scabbard remains wood and uncovered by beading, the apparent aging of it and the jawbone suggests it is quite probably a genuinely worn weapon...but again, that is my assumption based on visual assessment from these photos. There are of course considerable cases of spurious items out there, but it sure looks like real deal.

Great knife with wonderful character!!! Wish we would see more of these American Indian items here.

Battara · 29th October 2019, 02:48 AM

I agree with your assessment Jim, except that the back is not wood but perhaps rawhide. The pattern and colors are consistent with Plains designs, like what you see on some moccasins of the same period. Use of lazy stitch was/is popular among Plains Native Americans (among others) as well.

Great piece and for sharing it - palamiya (Lakota for thank you).

Martin Lubojacky · 29th October 2019, 10:23 AM

Thanks for comments. I forgot to mention the length of the knife, which is 34 cms. From this I thought the handle could be wolf or small bear. The back is really rawhide.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2019, 06:30 PM

Thanks guy, I need better glasses, rawhide makes perfect sense.
Im thinking a small bear on the jaw.

BAW · 12th November 2019, 09:58 PM

As to the age of this knife & scabbard, it is sometimes difficult to tell a 20th or 21st century copy from a 19th century original if the proper techniques of hand manufacture are used. The materials used can be helpful, however. The tang of the blade seems to be inserted into the hollow bone of the handle and has no rivet or other means of fastening it. What holds it in? If you look down the blade towards the handle, can you see into the hollow part of the bone? If you see evidence of the hollow having been filled with epoxy and the tang having been pushed into it, it indicates late manufacture. As Battara indicates, the technique of beading is called "lazy stitch" and is the easiest and fastest way to cover an area with beadwork. It is also quite fragile and was not the preferred method of beading an object which was to be subjected to hard use. Can you tell what kind of thread the beads are strung on? An older 19th century example might use animal sinew, and later 19th century examples might use cotton thread. Many, perhaps most modern makers of Indian style beadwork use dental floss.

Cthulhu · 3rd December 2019, 12:06 AM

Is this comfortable to hold? The teeth in the handle are very attractive, but I wonder how practical they are, given the various other bones that presumably are available if you have a bear jaw at your disposal. Of course practicality doesn't mean everything, but it does make me wonder.

Verifying if the beads are glass or something else might be helpful for dating this.

Also looking at the punched holes in the sheath in one of your photos, it looks like there's leather sticking out as an artifact of the punching, which I would think would be worn off if this item had seen much use.

Please take as a caveat that I know literally nothing about Native American tools.

kronckew · 3rd December 2019, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAW

... The tang of the blade seems to be inserted into the hollow bone of the handle and has no rivet or other means of fastening it. What holds it in? If you look down the blade towards the handle, can you see into the hollow part of the bone? If you see evidence of the hollow having been filled with epoxy and the tang having been pushed into it, it indicates late manufacture. ...

Native Americans were capable of using tree resins and water resistant glues.

Martin Lubojacky · 3rd December 2019, 11:31 AM

Kronckew, Cthulhu and BAW, Thank you for your additional remarks. And welcome to the forum, BAW.

The knife is not with me now and I´ll see it ca in half a year, again. Nevertheless, what I remember: the small beads on the shetah are made of glass. The bigger bead (with flower ?) on the pendant is made of glass and is very well worn. Other beads on the pendant are made of wood. Back side of the sheath is not worn (if I compare with African knives). The handle is, I would say, nearly absolutely ergonometric and was used. The teeth don´t matter, just opposite. The blade has tongue, it fell out and I glued it back (there is a hole in the handle). The sewing material is a mystery for me - I was not able to recognize, if it was some kind of a flat plastic thread or natural sinew, it is somehow "dry".

Pukka Bundook · 3rd December 2019, 02:25 PM

It looks an interesting and attractive knife, Martin.

The handle on this appears to be a bear jaw-bone, and there was some made this way originally.
The blade looks more modern than I would expect for an original artefact, as does the sinew or whatever holding the rawhide sheath together.
Things like the stitching and the holes normally get rubbed and filled with dirt/grease and polished a bit with wear and carrying.
Holes were normally made with an awl, rather than being punched out.
I think (Think) it may be a nicely made more recent piece.

Thank you for showing it! We don't see many N American pieces here!

All the best,
Richard.

PS,

This reminds me of a knife my daughter has;
It was found at a buffalo jump in southern Alberta. Will take photos and post it on a new thread.

28th October 2019, 03:27 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	North American Indian knife Please, could anybody advise which tribe and how old the knife could be ? Souvenier or real tool ? My idea is either Eastern Plains Sioux or Assiniboin style of the sheath (???). I bought it in Europe. Attached Images

12th November 2019, 09:58 PM	#6
BAW Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 6	North American Indian Knife As to the age of this knife & scabbard, it is sometimes difficult to tell a 20th or 21st century copy from a 19th century original if the proper techniques of hand manufacture are used. The materials used can be helpful, however. The tang of the blade seems to be inserted into the hollow bone of the handle and has no rivet or other means of fastening it. What holds it in? If you look down the blade towards the handle, can you see into the hollow part of the bone? If you see evidence of the hollow having been filled with epoxy and the tang having been pushed into it, it indicates late manufacture. As Battara indicates, the technique of beading is called "lazy stitch" and is the easiest and fastest way to cover an area with beadwork. It is also quite fragile and was not the preferred method of beading an object which was to be subjected to hard use. Can you tell what kind of thread the beads are strung on? An older 19th century example might use animal sinew, and later 19th century examples might use cotton thread. Many, perhaps most modern makers of Indian style beadwork use dental floss.

28th October 2019, 09:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	While I am certainly no authority on American Indian weapons or items, I am really glad to see them brought up here for discussion. From all I can find, the diagonal geometrics and general design of the scabbard here does correspond to Plains tribes and of the Sioux spectrum of associated tribes. The Assiniboine are a Siouxan inclusion (known also as Nakota) and similar designs found in their material culture. The handle appears to be a badger jaw bone, which seems to have been used in these smaller knives. The bead work appears to be the smaller type which came into Indian trade from Czechoslavakia in latter 19th c. but the colors are unusual, and seem particularly vibrant. The blade seems of course typical of knives present in these times worn as belt knives for utility usually, skinning etc. Contrary to popular belief, the knife was never a primary weapon, nor favored means of fighting for Indian warriors. The fact that the back of the scabbard remains wood and uncovered by beading, the apparent aging of it and the jawbone suggests it is quite probably a genuinely worn weapon...but again, that is my assumption based on visual assessment from these photos. There are of course considerable cases of spurious items out there, but it sure looks like real deal. Great knife with wonderful character!!! Wish we would see more of these American Indian items here.

29th October 2019, 02:48 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree with your assessment Jim, except that the back is not wood but perhaps rawhide. The pattern and colors are consistent with Plains designs, like what you see on some moccasins of the same period. Use of lazy stitch was/is popular among Plains Native Americans (among others) as well. Great piece and for sharing it - palamiya (Lakota for thank you).

29th October 2019, 10:23 AM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thanks for comments. I forgot to mention the length of the knife, which is 34 cms. From this I thought the handle could be wolf or small bear. The back is really rawhide.

29th October 2019, 06:30 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Thanks guy, I need better glasses, rawhide makes perfect sense. Im thinking a small bear on the jaw.

3rd December 2019, 12:06 AM	#7
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	Is this comfortable to hold? The teeth in the handle are very attractive, but I wonder how practical they are, given the various other bones that presumably are available if you have a bear jaw at your disposal. Of course practicality doesn't mean everything, but it does make me wonder. Verifying if the beads are glass or something else might be helpful for dating this. Also looking at the punched holes in the sheath in one of your photos, it looks like there's leather sticking out as an artifact of the punching, which I would think would be worn off if this item had seen much use. Please take as a caveat that I know literally nothing about Native American tools.

3rd December 2019, 11:31 AM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Kronckew, Cthulhu and BAW, Thank you for your additional remarks. And welcome to the forum, BAW. The knife is not with me now and I´ll see it ca in half a year, again. Nevertheless, what I remember: the small beads on the shetah are made of glass. The bigger bead (with flower ?) on the pendant is made of glass and is very well worn. Other beads on the pendant are made of wood. Back side of the sheath is not worn (if I compare with African knives). The handle is, I would say, nearly absolutely ergonometric and was used. The teeth don´t matter, just opposite. The blade has tongue, it fell out and I glued it back (there is a hole in the handle). The sewing material is a mystery for me - I was not able to recognize, if it was some kind of a flat plastic thread or natural sinew, it is somehow "dry".

3rd December 2019, 02:25 PM	#10
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	It looks an interesting and attractive knife, Martin. The handle on this appears to be a bear jaw-bone, and there was some made this way originally. The blade looks more modern than I would expect for an original artefact, as does the sinew or whatever holding the rawhide sheath together. Things like the stitching and the holes normally get rubbed and filled with dirt/grease and polished a bit with wear and carrying. Holes were normally made with an awl, rather than being punched out. I think (Think) it may be a nicely made more recent piece. Thank you for showing it! We don't see many N American pieces here! All the best, Richard. PS, This reminds me of a knife my daughter has; It was found at a buffalo jump in southern Alberta. Will take photos and post it on a new thread.