The so-called " cobra swords"

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2019, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marius is right, this is the only way to describe it, and this goes for a number of other weapons as well.

Ariel, the first sword you show seem to have a lotus decoration on the hilt, and the lines would represent water. The strange thing is, that the pommmeel also seem to be a lotus flower together with the missing quillons- this I have never seen such a pommel before.

Jim, I just read your post and yes, we have had this name game several times, but we never seem to learn:-(.
You write "Afghan influence in the Deccan", but it could also have been Deccan influence in Afghanistan. See one of Ariel's latest posts.
In Robert's book Hindu Arms and Ritual he shows a sword from Vijayanagara from the 15th century with a chakra (chapter 11), so this sword type is very old, although later the hilts were often replaced.

Hi Jens
We crossed posts, and we are in complete accord. As we have often discussed, which direction the influence was generated remains unclear, but the connection between the styling in comparison is compelling.

ariel · 23rd November 2019, 04:59 PM

I am in complete agreement: descriptive approach is the only one we have at our disposal. A pity we do not know the original name of the S. Indian sword with the " chakra" blade :-((

I am with Jens: the influence went from South to North. Afghanis just adopted it, and very cleverly, to boot. Again, pity we do not have Afghani swords before 16 century; then we could have argued that they introduced it to the South, before the images of cup-like pommels there. Thus, arguing the North-to-South direction is a pure speculation.
I have an Afghani sword with a cup-like pommel but no lid ( likely, it was not there to start with. One can recall somewhat similar pommels from Hamza Nama and later tulwar pommels from NW India.

Jens mentioned to me the issue of Kukri: virtually identical blades were present among very early Southern swords ( see Rawson).
And, as a matter of fact, the earliest image of kukri is in the portrait of Dravya Shah ( 16 century)on the battlefield, and this kukri is still stored in the National Museum in Nepal. I used to have both pics but lost them.
But what the heck! Afghanis made kukris in the 20th century. If it works, use it.

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2019, 06:00 PM

Very true Ariel.
Actually I agree that the paluoar influence likely went from Deccan into Afghan regions. What I meant by Afghan influences in Deccan was regarding the small Pathan principalities there such as Kurnool. The point being that certainly there was an exchange of blades and hilt forms.
Well noted on the kukris, produced in the Afghan factory at Mashin Khana.

ariel · 24th November 2019, 01:34 AM

Jim,
Afghani kukris are very modern copying: we can’t even call it “influence” or
“Exchange of ideas”. Plain violation of copyrights:-))))

But Jens’ comment opens a whole can of worms: is it possible that Kukri was brought to Nepal by Hindu Rajputs around 16 century? Indeed, we ( I definitely) know of no evidence that it was present there earlier.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th November 2019, 02:01 PM

Ariel, since you mentioned it yourself.
In Hindu Arms and Ritual Robert Elgood, in chapter 8, shows a Gana (arms bearer for the great gods). It is from a cave temple and said to be from the 7th century. The relief shows a Gana holding a very kukri like knife.
In the same chapter he shows forward curved swords from the 15th and 17th century.
Is the Aydha Katthi a reminiscence of these blades? The Sosan Pattah is likely to be.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2019, 04:17 PM

In the original post, it was asked, (1) if southern and northwest examples of these distinctive 'chakra disc' type blades could be separated by the hilts mounted on them.
(2) it was asked if the South Indian examples could have 'replacement' hilts.

If I am understanding correctly, the objective is to determine the regional place of origin of these blades as a type, and if they indeed became used as far north as Afghanistan, given the oft appearance of the paluoar hilts on them.

It seems to me that the incorporation of the disc is agreed to be a religiously inspired element from the Hindu 'chakra', and that it is indeed placed symbolically is further indicated in the unusual placement toward tip instead of forte of the blade on the khanda illustrated.

The blades seem to be typically deeply fullered or channeled in the manner of earlier Vijayanagara types, and with the chakra feature added.

These factors considered lead me to believe the origins of this style of blade to be effectively a southern convention, and that the use of the disc element may have evolved from similar blade 'widenings' of perhaps earlier forms.
It is clear that there have been atavistic adoptions of diverse blade forms from iconographic sources in southern India for some time, and as well noted by Jens, these styles often, if not typically moved northward in the regions of the subcontinent.

Whatever the case, it would be difficult to try to assess the regional provenance of an example with this type blade simply by the hilt it bears given the obvious disparity of the hilts seen on them. That being the case is directly in line with question (2), the replacement of handles on these type blades, which is well known in India with the propensity for refurbishing weapons.
It is well established that blades were a widely traded and exchanged commodity, whose often long working lives in many cases resulted in rehilting with favored local styles and upgraded fashions.

In the case of the paluoar hilted versions, it seems these were likely to have been syncretically joined in regions of the Deccan and northward as suggested in Elgood in accord with the Pathan element from Afghanistan.
As far as I have known, these distinctive blades are not known in Afghanistan regionally, while obviously the paluoar hilt style found its way southerly into the Pathan enclaves described.

In the cases of these type blades with tulwar; khanda or other hilts, including the curious case of the katar, it would appear mounting again to local favor.
If I recall, it seems that the katar with this feature was even suggested at some point for possible origin of the blade style, unsure on that one.

ariel · 24th November 2019, 04:43 PM

BTW, I could never fully understand why Aydha Katti carries “ Arab influence”. That is repeatedly mentioned in various sources ( Elgood included) but no specific feature is convincingly mentioned.
Deccani Sailaba is in fact a Sousson Patta. And ( I climb on a very thin phonetic limb) the real Afghani name for Khyber knife is “ selavah”. Are we talking about an imperfect homonym or was there a real connection between these two short, single edged chopping weapons? Did the Afghanis adopt it but simplified its construction? After all they have acquired all of their bladed weapons ( and their names, to boot) either from India or from Persia and the sophistication of their bladesmithing was grossly inferior to both. They were utilitarians, not inventors and not decorators.

kronckew · 24th November 2019, 08:18 PM

Transliteration between languages is odd at times, I have a 'Salawar Yataghan' (well, it is indeed slightly recurved) which was so named for me a few years back by one of our prestigious forum members as the more correct name for the item sometimes also called a 'Khyber knife' by us ferengi who do not know better.

24th November 2019, 04:17 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	In the original post, it was asked, (1) if southern and northwest examples of these distinctive 'chakra disc' type blades could be separated by the hilts mounted on them. (2) it was asked if the South Indian examples could have 'replacement' hilts. If I am understanding correctly, the objective is to determine the regional place of origin of these blades as a type, and if they indeed became used as far north as Afghanistan, given the oft appearance of the paluoar hilts on them. It seems to me that the incorporation of the disc is agreed to be a religiously inspired element from the Hindu 'chakra', and that it is indeed placed symbolically is further indicated in the unusual placement toward tip instead of forte of the blade on the khanda illustrated. The blades seem to be typically deeply fullered or channeled in the manner of earlier Vijayanagara types, and with the chakra feature added. These factors considered lead me to believe the origins of this style of blade to be effectively a southern convention, and that the use of the disc element may have evolved from similar blade 'widenings' of perhaps earlier forms. It is clear that there have been atavistic adoptions of diverse blade forms from iconographic sources in southern India for some time, and as well noted by Jens, these styles often, if not typically moved northward in the regions of the subcontinent. Whatever the case, it would be difficult to try to assess the regional provenance of an example with this type blade simply by the hilt it bears given the obvious disparity of the hilts seen on them. That being the case is directly in line with question (2), the replacement of handles on these type blades, which is well known in India with the propensity for refurbishing weapons. It is well established that blades were a widely traded and exchanged commodity, whose often long working lives in many cases resulted in rehilting with favored local styles and upgraded fashions. In the case of the paluoar hilted versions, it seems these were likely to have been syncretically joined in regions of the Deccan and northward as suggested in Elgood in accord with the Pathan element from Afghanistan. As far as I have known, these distinctive blades are not known in Afghanistan regionally, while obviously the paluoar hilt style found its way southerly into the Pathan enclaves described. In the cases of these type blades with tulwar; khanda or other hilts, including the curious case of the katar, it would appear mounting again to local favor. If I recall, it seems that the katar with this feature was even suggested at some point for possible origin of the blade style, unsure on that one. Attached Images

24th November 2019, 08:18 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Transliteration between languages is odd at times, I have a 'Salawar Yataghan' (well, it is indeed slightly recurved) which was so named for me a few years back by one of our prestigious forum members as the more correct name for the item sometimes also called a 'Khyber knife' by us ferengi who do not know better. Attached Images

23rd November 2019, 04:59 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am in complete agreement: descriptive approach is the only one we have at our disposal. A pity we do not know the original name of the S. Indian sword with the " chakra" blade :-(( I am with Jens: the influence went from South to North. Afghanis just adopted it, and very cleverly, to boot. Again, pity we do not have Afghani swords before 16 century; then we could have argued that they introduced it to the South, before the images of cup-like pommels there. Thus, arguing the North-to-South direction is a pure speculation. I have an Afghani sword with a cup-like pommel but no lid ( likely, it was not there to start with. One can recall somewhat similar pommels from Hamza Nama and later tulwar pommels from NW India. Jens mentioned to me the issue of Kukri: virtually identical blades were present among very early Southern swords ( see Rawson). And, as a matter of fact, the earliest image of kukri is in the portrait of Dravya Shah ( 16 century)on the battlefield, and this kukri is still stored in the National Museum in Nepal. I used to have both pics but lost them. But what the heck! Afghanis made kukris in the 20th century. If it works, use it.

23rd November 2019, 06:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Very true Ariel. Actually I agree that the paluoar influence likely went from Deccan into Afghan regions. What I meant by Afghan influences in Deccan was regarding the small Pathan principalities there such as Kurnool. The point being that certainly there was an exchange of blades and hilt forms. Well noted on the kukris, produced in the Afghan factory at Mashin Khana.

24th November 2019, 01:34 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, Afghani kukris are very modern copying: we can’t even call it “influence” or “Exchange of ideas”. Plain violation of copyrights:-)))) But Jens’ comment opens a whole can of worms: is it possible that Kukri was brought to Nepal by Hindu Rajputs around 16 century? Indeed, we ( I definitely) know of no evidence that it was present there earlier.

24th November 2019, 02:01 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, since you mentioned it yourself. In Hindu Arms and Ritual Robert Elgood, in chapter 8, shows a Gana (arms bearer for the great gods). It is from a cave temple and said to be from the 7th century. The relief shows a Gana holding a very kukri like knife. In the same chapter he shows forward curved swords from the 15th and 17th century. Is the Aydha Katthi a reminiscence of these blades? The Sosan Pattah is likely to be.

24th November 2019, 04:43 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	BTW, I could never fully understand why Aydha Katti carries “ Arab influence”. That is repeatedly mentioned in various sources ( Elgood included) but no specific feature is convincingly mentioned. Deccani Sailaba is in fact a Sousson Patta. And ( I climb on a very thin phonetic limb) the real Afghani name for Khyber knife is “ selavah”. Are we talking about an imperfect homonym or was there a real connection between these two short, single edged chopping weapons? Did the Afghanis adopt it but simplified its construction? After all they have acquired all of their bladed weapons ( and their names, to boot) either from India or from Persia and the sophistication of their bladesmithing was grossly inferior to both. They were utilitarians, not inventors and not decorators.