DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Jean,

As explained in post #2, sandang walikat= gird over the shoulder.


Alan,

I don't see it as a dialect. It was designed to facilitate communication between confederate officials from the capital and regional officials from any part of the kingdom.
If you insist on a name for it, then it is: Basa (Soenda) Jero. Probably a bit like Kromo Inggil&Madya.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much Amuk, I now understand perfectly, a quick phone call did it for me.

Basa Jero in Basa Sunda can be understood as extremely refined language that will only be understood by a select group of people, a little bit like university undergraduates, or perhaps some members of the British upper class, who use unknown and archaic language forms to impress their fellows.

The other way it can be understood is as a refined jargon, again only comprehensible to members of the group who use that jargon.

The above is pretty much word for word how Basa Jero Sunda was just explained to me, and from what you have just told us about the reason for being of Basa Sunda Jero, then the explanation I have just been given seems to be pretty accurate, in essence it is an archaic jargon that was at one time used by officialdom.

In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese.

Thank you very much, I really do value knowing this, because over a very long time I have spent a very great deal of time researching some of things you have written, at times I have felt that I was getting close to solving the mystery, when I would discover a word you used in Classical Malay, or in Bahasa Madura, but these were false leads, they never went anywhere.

Now I believe I understand perfectly why these leads were all dead ends.

Again I offer you my most sincere thanks.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Another doehoeng just to share with anyone interested.
Enjoy!

Name: Sang Poetjoek Oemoen
Desc: Sampana Leres 9Eloek GALOEHPANGAOEBAN
Char: Koekoedoeng , djalwan , pentil , ladjer.
Blade: LxOALxWxT=36.5x43.5x8.96x1.18cm.
Handle: Filigreed white-metal w/ red-stones Pralamba Boeta Para Doeka
Wt: 163g.
Sheath: Wood Djoeng Golekan w/ embossed soeasa o/sheath

Apologies should the photo not be correct on your screen.

Best

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for the pic of this interesting piece again! Some comments or questions please:
. The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?
. Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng
Regards

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
A similar hilt to yours fitted on a new kris from Sumbawa (courtesy of PdV).
Regards

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

. ..... This type of hilt is .....
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days .....

Hullo Jean,

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

Hullo Jean,

You may be right, but I believe itto be northern coast of western Java.

Best,

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo Jean,

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

Love the warangka ladrang you have (one from Hamengkoeboewono wow)! I had never seen pendok such as that before, it looks dignified.

Thank you very much for sharing your pusakas with us!

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by shadejoy

I had never seen pendok such as that before, it looks dignified.

Yeah I really them too. Then again I'm pretty partial to West Java/Sunda stuff.

Interestingly, this style of pendok can be seen in one of the earliest and detailed depictions of the keris we have in art.

Attached is Frans Francken the Younger's "The Cabinet of a Collector", 1617. A Dutch painter.

I know of at least one Sundanese wood carver/mranggi who is attempting to make this style of pendok for collectors of Sunda/West Javanese keris. It doesn't seem to be that common anymore.

[JBG163]

Amuk, i can't pm you sadly ? Can you send me an email please ? Thanks

[jagabuwana]

Comments: Taroem(=indigo) is traditionally identified with Soenda, hence the band.

Kang Amuk, I am interested to learn more about the association between tarum and Sunda. Do you have any resources, or perhaps you can share more yourself?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Alan,

"In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese."


To be more specific, it is the equivalent of Djawa Bagongan.


Hullo Jean,

". The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?"

The blade is the ‘heart’, so ‘dress’ is not important and may see many changes throughout the blade’s life.
The hilt COULD have been made in the lesser Soenda islands.
The main difference between your example and mine: yours appears to be more stereotypical Bugis, with a hair-clasp/bledegan and greater proportion forward-leaning.

". This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?"

I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever seen one from outside western Java. It was designed for practicality. It goes back to at least the 19thC.

". Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng"

Koekoedoeng = carina~ toelale, djalwan=stamen~ djalen, pentil = fruitset~ lambej, ladjer= prop~ gandi.

Hullo jagabuwana,

Back in the day, Soenda were known for their indigo dye, Djawa for their red dye, so fabric were sent to different areas to get dyed the right colours.
Back to your question:
CiTAROEM river.
TAROEManagara kingdom.

As has often been pointed out in this forum:
To understand a product, one has to understand the language, the culture and the history of the people who produced it.

Best,

[jagabuwana]

Nuhun, Amuk Murugul. I do agree that to understand something, the language must also be understood. So I'm inclined to go further.

The reason I asked the question about the connection between Sunda and tarum (indigo) is because it is often taken to be self-evident that Sunda culture and lands have long been associated with tarum. As you mention, the river Citarum and the 5th century kingdom of Tarumanagara bear this name, and tarum means indigo in Sundanese today and likely also meant indigo in the local language in the time of Purnawarman

However I've personally only seen fairly modern sources that use the indigo colour to symbolise something Sundanese (let's say 18th century onwards) - and I seem to have trouble locating any sources that indicate the plant, dye or colour being of any symbolic relevance or even as a commodity of note. I am well aware too that we are talking about knowledges and facts pertaining to a Nusantara culture here and so historicity gives way to changing narrative and folkloric belief. Folklore, the passage of time as well as the obvious the meaning of "tarum" has perhaps lent weight to the symbolism of indigo and its connection to Sunda. But historicity in this case provides a richer understanding of the history and etymology behind the tarum in Tarumanagara or Citarum.

For this, Robert Wessing's (2011) Tarumanagara: What's in a name? (Journal of South East Asian Studies, 42:2, pp.325-327) provides a very well argued alternative for the origins of "tarum. Here are some interesting points:

-- There is no evidence to suggest that indigo as a commodity was particularly noteworthy by either Tarumanagara or to the places they exported their commodities to.

-- Tarum is not a word that exists in Sanskrit, but it probably corresponds to the tamil tarumam, which is dharma in Sanskrit. Tarumanagara then likely means something more like The State of Dharma, or Dharma Country. Wessing supports this argument through explaining that Purnawarman's court and city may have been deliberately built to be flanked by canals which were named Candrabagha and Gomati, which are sacred rivers on the Indian subcontinent.

-- Just as Candrabagha and Gomati were the names of existing rivers on the subcontinent, so too is the name "Tarum" in South India (e.g. Tarumapuram, Tarumaputtiran, Tarumaraja). It was likely that the Taruma inclusion was brought over by Tamil Hindu migrants who occupied positions of influence in Tarumanagara.

-- The understanding that the inclusion of the word tarum in Citarum or Tarumanagara originated from the word for indigo is coincidental. The word probably did mean indigo in the local language in 5th century. Indigo was known to grow freely on the banks of the Citarum, and so the double-meaning was accepted and applied.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo jagabuwana,

You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Best,

[jagabuwana]

I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo jagabuwana,
You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I’d post about this familiar item. It feels the appropriate place. I’m sure better and more detailed pictures are available elsewhere in this room.

blade: Mahisah Toempeng 11Eloek
hilt: Wood Sang Manarah
meas.: 44x54x9cm.
sheath: Wood Djoengan Lemah Pakwan Radjapoetra
vintage: 1512

Best,

[David]

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated.

Haha, this kris is described in detail in the Krisdisk from Jensen (a precious picture reference for antique krisses) but subject to copyright.... You may see it upon your next trip to Vienna

[Jean]

Copy of the page in question in the Krisdisk

[David]

Thanks Jean.
In order to take my "next" trip to Vienna i would have to have already taken my FIRST trip to Vienna. LOL!

[Jean]

And this is my own kris, the antique blade was unfortunately broken and shortened while piercing the body of an enemy
It was repaired & treated in Solo, and the scabbard was recently made by copying an old model.
Regards