DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, maybe English might not be possible --- it is sometimes not really possible with some Javanese words & ideas --- but if a translation into Bahasa Indonesia were to be possible, this would assist.

Even post 1972 spelling might help.

I've just a few minutes ago run this text past an educated 22 year old from Bandung who is here on holidays, and he cannot make head nor tail of it, even after I did the standard change from Dutch style spellings to English style spellings.

Amuk, what language are we looking at here? I had assumed Sundanese, but perhaps it is a dialectical variation?

[Amuk Murugul]

Jean,
Mahisah Kerak is a style/dapoer
Tjorok, mentioned in post #2, tang>0.7cm
Djerbon= trust/faith in ‘mother'; from ‘ djedjer’(=one who can be trusted/depended upon) and ‘ bon’(=mother);river/sea waters were considered ‘mother’, mountains ‘father’. It was the original name for what is now known as “Cirebon”.
Galoeh/Galuh was a kingdom whose size varied from time to time, at times covering the whole of western Java (including some of Central Java). Segaloeh is a Javanese construct; I don’t know what is meant by it except as in Javanese keris protocol.
Oepih is a palm-leaf sheath
Oesoek is a roof-batten(=ada-ada in Javanese protocol)
Kotjop is wrong, it should be Pentil(=young fruit ‘bud’)
Kitjaka was the commander-in-chief of king Wirata in Mahabarata; while Doersasana is also a character from the same epic, Radjamala is a Javanese construct who did not appear in the original

Alan,
Being born, bred and living in Bandoeng does not necessarily make one ‘Soenda’. Then, of course, there is Soenda and Soenda (just as there is Koori and Koori)
Your assumption is indeed correct; I use Basa Soenda.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, of course you're right Amuk, but I rather think the young gentleman to whom I referred your text might be considered to be attuned to his native culture. I will not go into the reasons for why I think this to be so, but if he is indeed not genuinely committed to the history and values of his native culture, then I guess the Indonesian government has misplaced their trust.

Still, I think we can put the question of qualifications to one side. Fact is I rather enjoy reading your posts, they are certainly unique.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, of course you're right Amuk, but I rather think the young gentleman to whom I referred your text might be considered to be attuned to his native culture. I will not go into the reasons for why I think this to be so, but if he is indeed not genuinely committed to the history and values of his native culture, then I guess the Indonesian government has misplaced their trust.

Still, I think we can put the question of qualifications to one side. Fact is I rather enjoy reading your posts, they are certainly unique.

Hullo Alan,

I felt obliged to respond.
Forgive me if I sound a bit cynical, but experiences have left me rather disappointed (especially by those in position to make significant change). However, I am still hopeful. Especially now that there appears to be a new crop with vision and ideals as well as the courage of their convictions.
Perhaps, the time may come when:” Bila melihat dolar, mata menghijau” may be laid to rest.
BTW ..... if your friend is 'into' Soenda culture, he may have heard of a couple of my 'brothers-in-arms': Ekadjati (Bdg), Djatisunda (Skb)

I am pleased that my posts can be a source of enjoyment/mirth.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

Not mirth Amuk, never mirth.

I enjoy language.

The fact that you use a spelling that was officially discontinued in 1972 as well the assumption that you are using one of the Sundanese dialects --- I've been told there is:- "a different dialect for every point of the compass, and a few in between" --- makes the job of trying to understand what you are actually saying pretty interesting. I do have a few reference books on S.E, Asian language, and I have a couple of connections in the community of linguists who study Malayo-Polynesian languages, so I'm not totally bereft of resources, but still, I can normally only latch on to maybe 25% of the words you use.

So your posts do entertain me, but not in any mirthful fashion. I enjoy the puzzle of what you put before us.

As for cynicism, well, you're talking to the bloke who wrote the book. I was paid good money for many years to be a professional cynic. You remember Mel Gibson in "Taxi Driver" ? I've been told that whoever wrote that part for dear old Mel must have spent a lot of time with me.

The young gentleman to whom I referred your text is not a friend, only a relative of a friend who is visiting Oz, he and his aunt just happened to be at my house when I read your text. Apparently he has some sort of Govt scholarship that is primarily focused on the history and culture of Sunda.

Since you have been so kind as to expand your comments Amuk, could I ask just one tiny further indulgence:- what dialect do you use in your posts?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Jean,
Mahisah Kerak is a style/dapoer
Tjorok, mentioned in post #2, tang>0.7cm
Djerbon= trust/faith in ‘mother'; from ‘ djedjer’(=one who can be trusted/depended upon) and ‘ bon’(=mother);river/sea waters were considered ‘mother’, mountains ‘father’. It was the original name for what is now known as “Cirebon”.
Galoeh/Galuh was a kingdom whose size varied from time to time, at times covering the whole of western Java (including some of Central Java). Segaloeh is a Javanese construct; I don’t know what is meant by it except as in Javanese keris protocol.
Oepih is a palm-leaf sheath
Oesoek is a roof-batten(=ada-ada in Javanese protocol)
Kotjop is wrong, it should be Pentil(=young fruit ‘bud’)
Kitjaka was the commander-in-chief of king Wirata in Mahabarata; while Doersasana is also a character from the same epic, Radjamala is a Javanese construct who did not appear in the original


Best,

Thank you Amuk, your perspective is very interesting for us foreigners who don't clearly differentiate the Sundanese culture from the Javanese one. And your krisses are always a pleasure for the eyes!
Regards
PS: I know sandang walikat as a style of scabbard but what does it mean in your examples?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Jean,

As explained in post #2, sandang walikat= gird over the shoulder.


Alan,

I don't see it as a dialect. It was designed to facilitate communication between confederate officials from the capital and regional officials from any part of the kingdom.
If you insist on a name for it, then it is: Basa (Soenda) Jero. Probably a bit like Kromo Inggil&Madya.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much Amuk, I now understand perfectly, a quick phone call did it for me.

Basa Jero in Basa Sunda can be understood as extremely refined language that will only be understood by a select group of people, a little bit like university undergraduates, or perhaps some members of the British upper class, who use unknown and archaic language forms to impress their fellows.

The other way it can be understood is as a refined jargon, again only comprehensible to members of the group who use that jargon.

The above is pretty much word for word how Basa Jero Sunda was just explained to me, and from what you have just told us about the reason for being of Basa Sunda Jero, then the explanation I have just been given seems to be pretty accurate, in essence it is an archaic jargon that was at one time used by officialdom.

In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese.

Thank you very much, I really do value knowing this, because over a very long time I have spent a very great deal of time researching some of things you have written, at times I have felt that I was getting close to solving the mystery, when I would discover a word you used in Classical Malay, or in Bahasa Madura, but these were false leads, they never went anywhere.

Now I believe I understand perfectly why these leads were all dead ends.

Again I offer you my most sincere thanks.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Another doehoeng just to share with anyone interested.
Enjoy!

Name: Sang Poetjoek Oemoen
Desc: Sampana Leres 9Eloek GALOEHPANGAOEBAN
Char: Koekoedoeng , djalwan , pentil , ladjer.
Blade: LxOALxWxT=36.5x43.5x8.96x1.18cm.
Handle: Filigreed white-metal w/ red-stones Pralamba Boeta Para Doeka
Wt: 163g.
Sheath: Wood Djoeng Golekan w/ embossed soeasa o/sheath

Apologies should the photo not be correct on your screen.

Best

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for the pic of this interesting piece again! Some comments or questions please:
. The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?
. Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng
Regards

[JBG163]

Amuk, i can't pm you sadly ? Can you send me an email please ? Thanks

[jagabuwana]

Comments: Taroem(=indigo) is traditionally identified with Soenda, hence the band.

Kang Amuk, I am interested to learn more about the association between tarum and Sunda. Do you have any resources, or perhaps you can share more yourself?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo Alan,

"In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese."


To be more specific, it is the equivalent of Djawa Bagongan.


Hullo Jean,

". The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?"

The blade is the ‘heart’, so ‘dress’ is not important and may see many changes throughout the blade’s life.
The hilt COULD have been made in the lesser Soenda islands.
The main difference between your example and mine: yours appears to be more stereotypical Bugis, with a hair-clasp/bledegan and greater proportion forward-leaning.

". This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?"

I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever seen one from outside western Java. It was designed for practicality. It goes back to at least the 19thC.

". Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng"

Koekoedoeng = carina~ toelale, djalwan=stamen~ djalen, pentil = fruitset~ lambej, ladjer= prop~ gandi.

Hullo jagabuwana,

Back in the day, Soenda were known for their indigo dye, Djawa for their red dye, so fabric were sent to different areas to get dyed the right colours.
Back to your question:
CiTAROEM river.
TAROEManagara kingdom.

As has often been pointed out in this forum:
To understand a product, one has to understand the language, the culture and the history of the people who produced it.

Best,

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I’d post about this familiar item. It feels the appropriate place. I’m sure better and more detailed pictures are available elsewhere in this room.

blade: Mahisah Toempeng 11Eloek
hilt: Wood Sang Manarah
meas.: 44x54x9cm.
sheath: Wood Djoengan Lemah Pakwan Radjapoetra
vintage: 1512

Best,

[David]

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated.

Haha, this kris is described in detail in the Krisdisk from Jensen (a precious picture reference for antique krisses) but subject to copyright.... You may see it upon your next trip to Vienna