Pirate sword-cutlass

ariel · 3rd November 2019, 12:32 AM

The images of the janissaries are not the same.
One is a re-drawing of another ( this is like a newspaper back page “Find 10 differences”:-)))

Artists used older pictures time a time again, and the “ broken telephone” game eventually made the original and the n-th generation copy look like two independent ones.

All orientalists made quick drawings of the objects and painted their oils in the comfort of their studios, thousands miles away.

Both them and Old Masters had a stock of objects and used them as models for their oils.
My favorite one is Rembrandt’s “ Blinding of Samson”, where Philistines wear European armor and carry a Kris from Bali and a Pathistanaya from Ceylon ( both Dutch possessions at that time).

These old paintings may be extremely useful or awfully misleading, but we find the difference only with a hindsight.

francantolin · 3rd November 2019, 08:23 AM

Hello,

Thank you all for your precious comments and pictures !!

I found this picture of a janissary soldier going to the Preveza battle with a look-like sword.
The ottoman sea chief was Kheir-Eddine Barberousse,
here an old 19th orientalist drawing of him with the same sword shape
( dont' really look like Barberousse but that's the name of the old stamp

)

Looking for old painting and engravings about janissaries,
I was surprised to see no more armed with yatagan swords,
( yatagans were present since the 16th century I read )

At the same time, it's so difficult / impossible to find old ottoman scimitar swords that are not kilij .

All lost-damaged ?
Or more an orientalist fantasy-representation of the 19th century painters as told before ?...

Kind regards

francantolin · 3rd November 2019, 10:46 AM

Sorry, my english is not too good !

I mean:
Why is it today so difficult to find old ottoman- oriental scimitar-cutlass as described on the pictures while we can find quite ''easily'' really old kilij or yatagans ?

ariel · 3rd November 2019, 11:41 AM

Your first image is not “ yet another one”: it is a yet another re- drawing of one of the two images shown in the Post #7 . They are 3 variants of the same image, and which one was the original source is a mystery not worth solving.

The astonishing scarcity of physical representations of this pattern suggests IMHO that they did not exist in reality. Till now we see similar “ oriental scimitars” only in theatrical objects. I think the Sotheby’s one is from the same opera:-)

Orientalists did not just depict the Orient; they have created one for the multitudes of homebound Europeans. This was one of the very few correct observations of Edward Said.

Ren Ren · 3rd November 2019, 12:13 PM

Perhaps the roots of this tradition make sense to look for in the art of the Renaissance. Antonio del Pollaiuolo "The Battle of the Naked Men" (about 1465–1475)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th November 2019, 11:52 AM

For more artwork and stimulating discussion please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=1&pp=30
For example below ~

ariel · 4th November 2019, 12:14 PM

Ren Ren’s illustration may be quite revealing: European artists might have used their own falchions/stortas as a model for exotic Turkish swords.
Didn’t even have to spend money for a trip to Constantinople :-)

3rd November 2019, 08:23 AM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you all for your precious comments and pictures !! I found this picture of a janissary soldier going to the Preveza battle with a look-like sword. The ottoman sea chief was Kheir-Eddine Barberousse, here an old 19th orientalist drawing of him with the same sword shape ( dont' really look like Barberousse but that's the name of the old stamp ) Looking for old painting and engravings about janissaries, I was surprised to see no more armed with yatagan swords, ( yatagans were present since the 16th century I read ) At the same time, it's so difficult / impossible to find old ottoman scimitar swords that are not kilij . All lost-damaged ? Or more an orientalist fantasy-representation of the 19th century painters as told before ?... Kind regards Attached Images

3rd November 2019, 12:13 PM	#5
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Perhaps the roots of this tradition make sense to look for in the art of the Renaissance. Antonio del Pollaiuolo "The Battle of the Naked Men" (about 1465–1475) Attached Images

4th November 2019, 11:52 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For more artwork and stimulating discussion please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=1&pp=30 For example below ~ Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th November 2019 at 12:15 PM.

3rd November 2019, 12:32 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The images of the janissaries are not the same. One is a re-drawing of another ( this is like a newspaper back page “Find 10 differences”:-))) Artists used older pictures time a time again, and the “ broken telephone” game eventually made the original and the n-th generation copy look like two independent ones. All orientalists made quick drawings of the objects and painted their oils in the comfort of their studios, thousands miles away. Both them and Old Masters had a stock of objects and used them as models for their oils. My favorite one is Rembrandt’s “ Blinding of Samson”, where Philistines wear European armor and carry a Kris from Bali and a Pathistanaya from Ceylon ( both Dutch possessions at that time). These old paintings may be extremely useful or awfully misleading, but we find the difference only with a hindsight.

3rd November 2019, 10:46 AM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Sorry, my english is not too good ! I mean: Why is it today so difficult to find old ottoman- oriental scimitar-cutlass as described on the pictures while we can find quite ''easily'' really old kilij or yatagans ?

3rd November 2019, 11:41 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Your first image is not “ yet another one”: it is a yet another re- drawing of one of the two images shown in the Post #7 . They are 3 variants of the same image, and which one was the original source is a mystery not worth solving. The astonishing scarcity of physical representations of this pattern suggests IMHO that they did not exist in reality. Till now we see similar “ oriental scimitars” only in theatrical objects. I think the Sotheby’s one is from the same opera:-) Orientalists did not just depict the Orient; they have created one for the multitudes of homebound Europeans. This was one of the very few correct observations of Edward Said.

4th November 2019, 12:14 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ren Ren’s illustration may be quite revealing: European artists might have used their own falchions/stortas as a model for exotic Turkish swords. Didn’t even have to spend money for a trip to Constantinople :-)