Cut steel decorations on Indian arms

mahratt · 2nd November 2019, 10:23 AM

The rivets on these katars always seemed to me not very reliable.

kronckew · 2nd November 2019, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

The rivets on these katars always seemed to me not very reliable.

Yet they were used on these and other longer weapons for quite a long time, as were quite short stub tangs on swords, khukuris and daggers held in by a thermoplastic resin. Must have been reliable enough...

In our modern overbuilt throwaway if it breaks - we should have made it thicker/heavier and stringer/harder - world, we forget that it was never like that before, if it came loose, or broke, it was fixed, recycled, hehilted, reshaped, resharpened, rebladed, repurposed, repaired it until there was nothing left.

Nihl · 3rd November 2019, 10:47 PM

Just to add to the examples here, one of my katars appears to have had the blade taken off its original hilt and then brazed onto its current one. Also kind of surprised no ones mentioned copper soldering yet. I have a tulwar hilt that appears to have had liberal amounts of copper involved with its construction (most easily seen on the pommel disk - pic included), and actually the same katar that had its blade remounted also has its crossbars copper soldered to the sidebars. I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure I've also seen a number of examples of bara jamdadus (hooded katars) that have the balls in the middle of the crossbars soldered together with copper.

Edit: Reuploaded the tulwar pic so the soldering is more visible.

ariel · 4th November 2019, 12:45 AM

I have several Indian swords/daggers with riveted blades and the assemblage is very strong and reliable.

Earlier, I have mentioned a composite Indian sword I have: S. Indian blade of a very ancient pattern and a " newer" ( 16-19 cen.) pattern basket handle.
Here we are not talking about a repair of a weak assembly: this is an obvious case of a composite sword.
Blades of that construction had a very short tang and a very tight handle; there was very poor, if any, protection for the hand. Thus, it is not a miracle that the later owner decided to modernize the sword by attaching the blade to a solid basket handle. He retained riveting, but further strengthened the assembly with very extensive brazing. One can see large areas of brazing as well as smaller blisters of brass around the entire connection.

Also interesting, that although Western travelers repeatedly mentioned absence of stabbing function in the old swordplay arsenal of Indian warriors, this one has massive change of geometry of the tip of the blade ( ~ 8" long) resulting in a " zirah bouk" type tip. Old Indians did stab, a stabbed hard.

I am inviting your opinions re. potential dating of the components and the final product.
Thanks.

kronckew · 4th November 2019, 07:12 AM

Some notes on Brazing vs. Welding:

https://www.machinedesign.com/fasten...-beats-welding.

Brazing is basically soldering with a copper alloy.

ariel · 4th November 2019, 08:55 AM

Yup. See post #6.

mariusgmioc · 4th November 2019, 01:53 PM

I believe there is some ambiguity here when talking about metal working, more specifically about welding and brazing.

Modern welding appeared only by the end of 19th century, with the Industrial Revolution. Nowdays, when talking about welding we normally refer to modern welding.

However, forge welding, wherein the parts to be joined together were heated to red hot in the forge then hammered together, without use of any filler material, was known and used since the Bronze Age. Nowdays, forge welding is commonly referred as simply "forging."

So basically all welded structures made until well into the 19th century were forge welded. And this is the case old the pattern welded blades, and the case of most of the Katars (like for example the the Katar in the original posting) that were made by forge welding together their components and NOT by carving from a single steel block.

Those Katars that were not forge welded, were riveted.

Brazing is a generic term that refers to joining together two metal based components by using a filler metal. Exactly the same is soldering,

The only difference between brazing and soldering is the filler alloy used.
Whereas brazing is done at higher temperatures and accepts a wide variety of filler metals (Copper, Silver, Gold, Nickel, etc. and their alloys like Bronze or Brass), soldering is done at lower temperatures and uses a filler based on Tin (that has a very low melting point).

My two cents...

mahratt · 4th November 2019, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Earlier, I have mentioned a composite Indian sword I have: S. Indian blade of a very ancient pattern and a " newer" ( 16-19 cen.) pattern basket handle.
Here we are not talking about a repair of a weak assembly: this is an obvious case of a composite sword.

Beautiful sword. And it’s precisely said that it is a “composite sword”.
Although, it seems to me that the term "combined sword" definitely sounds better, since this sword is combined from two elements.

And the blade of this "sword" raises a serious question for me ... I very poorly know the ancient Indian swords until the 17th century. And I will be very grateful if they show me an ancient Indian sword with a blade of this shape.
For me, the blade of this sword looks like a huge tip of the Indian spear archaic form.
If Ariel kindly tells us the size of the blade of this "sword" it will undoubtedly be easier to understand whether this is so.

I will be very happy if this is a truly unique sword, and not the dexterous work of antique dealers of the first half of the 20th century ...

mariusgmioc · 4th November 2019, 10:54 PM

Ariel's sword is definitely composed of a spear tip and a hilt.

The thick diamond cross-section of the "zirah-bouk" tip makes it only useable for thrusting/stabbing, no cutting capability whatsoever.

ariel · 5th November 2019, 01:47 AM

Marius,
See Rawson’s pics of Madras swords in the V&A museum. Also, chapter 8 in Elgood. They do look “spear-y”, but they are constructed in a manner of Tatar-Circassian sabers: bayonnet-like tip and the rest is for slashing. See Pant, vol.2: there was a special name for such swords in Sanskrit, shulagra, i. e. Spear- pointed sword.

The tip of the blade is sharp on both edges usable for cutting, and below it there is a perfect double-edged blade fully suitable for classical cutting. Tips of the sword blades were not used for real cutting: see Turkish Palas with a sign 8-10” inches off the tip, indicating the desired point of impact.
The blade is almost 27”; I have several Tulwar/pulwars with blades of such length and shorter.

But let’s assume for a moment that you are correct, and the blade is from a spear. Still, it is not a recent marriage: patination is old, including the rivets.

Kronckew is right: weapons were expensive and every usable part was “...fixed, recycled, rehilted, reshaped, resharpened, rebladed, repurposed, repaired ...until there was nothing left.”

I would love it to be like that.

2nd November 2019, 10:23 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	The rivets on these katars always seemed to me not very reliable. Attached Images

3rd November 2019, 10:47 PM	#3
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Just to add to the examples here, one of my katars appears to have had the blade taken off its original hilt and then brazed onto its current one. Also kind of surprised no ones mentioned copper soldering yet. I have a tulwar hilt that appears to have had liberal amounts of copper involved with its construction (most easily seen on the pommel disk - pic included), and actually the same katar that had its blade remounted also has its crossbars copper soldered to the sidebars. I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure I've also seen a number of examples of bara jamdadus (hooded katars) that have the balls in the middle of the crossbars soldered together with copper. Edit: Reuploaded the tulwar pic so the soldering is more visible. Attached Images

4th November 2019, 12:45 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have several Indian swords/daggers with riveted blades and the assemblage is very strong and reliable. Earlier, I have mentioned a composite Indian sword I have: S. Indian blade of a very ancient pattern and a " newer" ( 16-19 cen.) pattern basket handle. Here we are not talking about a repair of a weak assembly: this is an obvious case of a composite sword. Blades of that construction had a very short tang and a very tight handle; there was very poor, if any, protection for the hand. Thus, it is not a miracle that the later owner decided to modernize the sword by attaching the blade to a solid basket handle. He retained riveting, but further strengthened the assembly with very extensive brazing. One can see large areas of brazing as well as smaller blisters of brass around the entire connection. Also interesting, that although Western travelers repeatedly mentioned absence of stabbing function in the old swordplay arsenal of Indian warriors, this one has massive change of geometry of the tip of the blade ( ~ 8" long) resulting in a " zirah bouk" type tip. Old Indians did stab, a stabbed hard. I am inviting your opinions re. potential dating of the components and the final product. Thanks. Attached Images

4th November 2019, 01:53 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	I believe there is some ambiguity here when talking about metal working, more specifically about welding and brazing. Modern welding appeared only by the end of 19th century, with the Industrial Revolution. Nowdays, when talking about welding we normally refer to modern welding. However, forge welding, wherein the parts to be joined together were heated to red hot in the forge then hammered together, without use of any filler material, was known and used since the Bronze Age. Nowdays, forge welding is commonly referred as simply "forging." So basically all welded structures made until well into the 19th century were forge welded. And this is the case old the pattern welded blades, and the case of most of the Katars (like for example the the Katar in the original posting) that were made by forge welding together their components and NOT by carving from a single steel block. Those Katars that were not forge welded, were riveted. Brazing is a generic term that refers to joining together two metal based components by using a filler metal. Exactly the same is soldering, The only difference between brazing and soldering is the filler alloy used. Whereas brazing is done at higher temperatures and accepts a wide variety of filler metals (Copper, Silver, Gold, Nickel, etc. and their alloys like Bronze or Brass), soldering is done at lower temperatures and uses a filler based on Tin (that has a very low melting point). My two cents... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 4th November 2019 at 02:30 PM.

5th November 2019, 01:47 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, See Rawson’s pics of Madras swords in the V&A museum. Also, chapter 8 in Elgood. They do look “spear-y”, but they are constructed in a manner of Tatar-Circassian sabers: bayonnet-like tip and the rest is for slashing. See Pant, vol.2: there was a special name for such swords in Sanskrit, shulagra, i. e. Spear- pointed sword. The tip of the blade is sharp on both edges usable for cutting, and below it there is a perfect double-edged blade fully suitable for classical cutting. Tips of the sword blades were not used for real cutting: see Turkish Palas with a sign 8-10” inches off the tip, indicating the desired point of impact. The blade is almost 27”; I have several Tulwar/pulwars with blades of such length and shorter. But let’s assume for a moment that you are correct, and the blade is from a spear. Still, it is not a recent marriage: patination is old, including the rivets. Kronckew is right: weapons were expensive and every usable part was “...fixed, recycled, rehilted, reshaped, resharpened, rebladed, repurposed, repaired ...until there was nothing left.” I would love it to be like that. Last edited by ariel; 5th November 2019 at 02:03 AM.

4th November 2019, 07:12 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Some notes on Brazing vs. Welding: https://www.machinedesign.com/fasten...-beats-welding. Brazing is basically soldering with a copper alloy.

4th November 2019, 08:55 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yup. See post #6.

4th November 2019, 10:54 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Ariel's sword is definitely composed of a spear tip and a hilt. The thick diamond cross-section of the "zirah-bouk" tip makes it only useable for thrusting/stabbing, no cutting capability whatsoever.