Cut steel decorations on Indian arms

Kubur · 28th October 2019, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Ariel, the hilt base and the blade is one piece of steel, so the whole katar was made in one piece.
These steel cut pieces are fantastic, and when you think of the tools they had at the time it is even more fantastic.

The Egyptians built the pyramids with Bronze tools...

If i'm not mistaken only the Southern Tanjore type katars are made of two pieces: a sword blade with 3 rivets to connect with the hilt?

Jens Nordlunde · 28th October 2019, 05:19 PM

Kubur, I know what you mean and agree with you, but I also seem to remember that Robert Elgood - somewhere - mentions that a katar had a blade solded to the hilt. However, a katar with a solded blade, would hardly be a good weapon in a battle - one hard hit with a sword on the side of the katar blade, and the katar blade is likely to have gone.

ariel · 29th October 2019, 03:04 AM

Soldering uses tin or zinc and those are very soft. They are good for repairing houseware or joining wires, but not for much else.

Not being a metallurgist of any sorts, how about brazing? Apparently it provides much stronger bond. In fact, it is a subdivision of soldering, only it uses brass. Brazing was used on bronze Sumerian swords 3000 years BC. I can’t remember where I read that brass and especially silver brazing bond is stronger than the steel parts they are joining.

I have a composite Indian sword with a S.Indian straight blade 14-17 century and a basket hilt 16-18 century joined by extensive brazing. When, - is another question :-), but historically they might have been married 300-400 years ago. And still holding strong:-)

Will M · 29th October 2019, 03:12 AM

Silver solder creates a very strong bond. I've used silver solder many times and it can flow into areas and fill them. Heat is more than lead solder but I believe less than brazing. Difficult to find now since prices have gone up due to silver content.

mariusgmioc · 29th October 2019, 08:51 AM

Soldering does not provide enough mechanical strength. While stronger than solder, silver brazing is still not strong enough. But here it can be opened a long discussion about the strength of a joint as it depends on many factors (area of the joint surface, what kind of forces is it subjected to - bending, torsion, shearing, etc.).

Brazing is normally using bronze for filler material and is strong enough to be used for weapons... but it cannot be subjected to strong shocks (smaller shocks and vibrations are jot a problem, but you definitely cannot braze a blade to a hilt and expect it to withstand shocks resulted from real use). I am not aware of brazing being used in any antique weapons production, maybe because of its low resistance to shocks, and in my oppinion all blades that have signs of brazing were subject to later repairs, and are not fit for use anymore.

I suspect that some katars are made through welding, by joinig separate parts when they are in red hot semi-molten state. Then, providing the joined parts are of same material and forging temperature is high enough, the joints would be invisible.

Maybe...

kronckew · 29th October 2019, 09:54 AM

My katar has a blade carrier section with a rapier blade tip inserted and riveted. the carrier section was tabbed and inserted into corresponding square holes in the curved crossbar, they appear to have either been shrink fitted and peened or forge welded together. Very hard to see as it has cut steel decorations and cross hatching, but there appear to be 5 tabs you can make out, less noticeable in the photos tho.

29th October 2019, 08:51 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Soldering does not provide enough mechanical strength. While stronger than solder, silver brazing is still not strong enough. But here it can be opened a long discussion about the strength of a joint as it depends on many factors (area of the joint surface, what kind of forces is it subjected to - bending, torsion, shearing, etc.). Brazing is normally using bronze for filler material and is strong enough to be used for weapons... but it cannot be subjected to strong shocks (smaller shocks and vibrations are jot a problem, but you definitely cannot braze a blade to a hilt and expect it to withstand shocks resulted from real use). I am not aware of brazing being used in any antique weapons production, maybe because of its low resistance to shocks, and in my oppinion all blades that have signs of brazing were subject to later repairs, and are not fit for use anymore. I suspect that some katars are made through welding, by joinig separate parts when they are in red hot semi-molten state. Then, providing the joined parts are of same material and forging temperature is high enough, the joints would be invisible. Maybe... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 29th October 2019 at 09:22 AM.

29th October 2019, 09:54 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	My katar has a blade carrier section with a rapier blade tip inserted and riveted. the carrier section was tabbed and inserted into corresponding square holes in the curved crossbar, they appear to have either been shrink fitted and peened or forge welded together. Very hard to see as it has cut steel decorations and cross hatching, but there appear to be 5 tabs you can make out, less noticeable in the photos tho. Attached Images

28th October 2019, 05:19 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kubur, I know what you mean and agree with you, but I also seem to remember that Robert Elgood - somewhere - mentions that a katar had a blade solded to the hilt. However, a katar with a solded blade, would hardly be a good weapon in a battle - one hard hit with a sword on the side of the katar blade, and the katar blade is likely to have gone.

29th October 2019, 03:04 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Soldering uses tin or zinc and those are very soft. They are good for repairing houseware or joining wires, but not for much else. Not being a metallurgist of any sorts, how about brazing? Apparently it provides much stronger bond. In fact, it is a subdivision of soldering, only it uses brass. Brazing was used on bronze Sumerian swords 3000 years BC. I can’t remember where I read that brass and especially silver brazing bond is stronger than the steel parts they are joining. I have a composite Indian sword with a S.Indian straight blade 14-17 century and a basket hilt 16-18 century joined by extensive brazing. When, - is another question :-), but historically they might have been married 300-400 years ago. And still holding strong:-)

29th October 2019, 03:12 AM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	Silver solder creates a very strong bond. I've used silver solder many times and it can flow into areas and fill them. Heat is more than lead solder but I believe less than brazing. Difficult to find now since prices have gone up due to silver content.