Bird shaped sword - A question to the Dah experts

Andrew · 2nd May 2006, 02:33 PM

Hi Artzi. Those are interesting things. I've not seen anything similar before.

Is there something in particular that makes you think "dha" when you handle these?

Oriental-Arms · 2nd May 2006, 03:32 PM

Hi Andrew

No good answer really. A little bit from the blade shape and a lot of intuition, but nothing to substantiate it

Rick · 2nd May 2006, 03:50 PM

Hi Artzi ,
Maybe a closer look at the carving on the scabbards can suggest the style of a particular culture .

Not a Dhafioso but when I first looked at them I was reminded a little of Pacific Northwest Native American work .

Most unusual .

fearn · 2nd May 2006, 07:08 PM

Hi All,

I'm not in the dhafia either, but Stone's Glossary has one of these blades pictured as a dha (fig. 257, p. 207, caption:"horn hilt and wood scabbard carved in the form of a conventional bird."). We haven't seen anything like this from the dhaphiles, but if Stone's correct (not 100% certain), this is another type of dha. It would have been nice if he'd provided some more source or size information...

F

Oriental-Arms · 2nd May 2006, 07:20 PM

Great Fearn and thanks. It is ages since I opened Stone to look for a blade. We should do it more frequently.

fearn · 2nd May 2006, 11:26 PM

You're quite welcome Artzi.

I guess the "good" news is that Stone's image doesn't look to be one of your blades, so at least three of this dha type have been made. Now, if someone would come forward with more information on them.

Since you've brought it forward, perhaps you'd like to name it? Personally, I think they look like cranes or herons (a heron dha?). For us Yanks, those birds look like loons, so they could be considered loony dhas, I suppose...

F

Andrew · 3rd May 2006, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi All,

I'm not in the dhafia either, but Stone's Glossary has one of these blades pictured as a dha (fig. 257, p. 207, caption:"horn hilt and wood scabbard carved in the form of a conventional bird."). We haven't seen anything like this from the dhaphiles, but if Stone's correct (not 100% certain), this is another type of dha. It would have been nice if he'd provided some more source or size information...

F

Great call, Fearn!

Andrew · 3rd May 2006, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriental-Arms

Hi Andrew

No good answer really. A little bit from the blade shape and a lot of intuition, but nothing to substantiate it

No suprise that your intuition was dead-on.

I've never seen one of these before, and you come up with two! Outstanding.

Perhaps PUFF can shed some light on where this form originates.

PUFF · 3rd May 2006, 11:37 AM

Neither I 'm

From the first glance, I do not recognize these pieces as a Dha/Dahb.
Typical Dha seems to share upward hilt characteristic while these two pieces have downward one. This means the blades might be designed for a different martial art (or for tourist). IMHO: These two pieces are unlikely to be Dha/Dahb. Could it be islandic or african?

Andrew · 3rd May 2006, 02:23 PM

Hi Puff. In my experience, downward-turned hilts do appear on some dha hmyaung. Perhaps these are from Burma?

Ian · 3rd May 2006, 06:47 PM

Never seen these motifs on dha before and the overall "balance" of the pieces seems odd for dha. While the blades would fit with small dha, the streamlined carving of the birds, extending into the scabbard, seems wrong for mainland SE Asia. Apart from Buddhist symbols, deities and demons, we see little animal or bird representation on edged weapons in the region.

The interpretations on Artzi's pieces seem quite literal and look like cranes. This suggests more of a Chinese influence to me, where cranes have special significance in terms of long life and associated wisdom.

In Feng Shui a Chinese crane painting symbolizes long life that increases in wisdom. Along with the phoenix, the crane is the most important bird in Chinese legend and art.

Ian.

Picture of Chinese Cranes

fearn · 4th May 2006, 02:12 AM

Hi Ian,

I did suggest a crane motif, but just to play devil's advocate, the sword with the brass ferrule (bottom in first photo, top in second) has short legs and a long tail, suggesting that (perhaps) it's a stylized peacock or maybe hornbill. That would indicate a south Asian origin. The crane/heron is suggested mostly by the long bill, and for all we know, these are supposed to be woodpeckers or kingfishers. I know, they don't have the crests, but it's hard to tell.

Personally, with that brass ferrule, I tend to think they are from SE Asia, and I suspect that they're more for show than for fighting or work.

Fearn

3rd May 2006, 06:47 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,609	Puzzling but I think Chinese Never seen these motifs on dha before and the overall "balance" of the pieces seems odd for dha. While the blades would fit with small dha, the streamlined carving of the birds, extending into the scabbard, seems wrong for mainland SE Asia. Apart from Buddhist symbols, deities and demons, we see little animal or bird representation on edged weapons in the region. The interpretations on Artzi's pieces seem quite literal and look like cranes. This suggests more of a Chinese influence to me, where cranes have special significance in terms of long life and associated wisdom. In Feng Shui a Chinese crane painting symbolizes long life that increases in wisdom. Along with the phoenix, the crane is the most important bird in Chinese legend and art. Ian. Picture of Chinese Cranes Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 3rd May 2006 at 06:58 PM.

2nd May 2006, 02:33 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Artzi. Those are interesting things. I've not seen anything similar before. Is there something in particular that makes you think "dha" when you handle these?

2nd May 2006, 03:32 PM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Hi Andrew No good answer really. A little bit from the blade shape and a lot of intuition, but nothing to substantiate it

2nd May 2006, 03:50 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Hi Artzi , Maybe a closer look at the carving on the scabbards can suggest the style of a particular culture . Not a Dhafioso but when I first looked at them I was reminded a little of Pacific Northwest Native American work . Most unusual .

2nd May 2006, 07:08 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, I'm not in the dhafia either, but Stone's Glossary has one of these blades pictured as a dha (fig. 257, p. 207, caption:"horn hilt and wood scabbard carved in the form of a conventional bird."). We haven't seen anything like this from the dhaphiles, but if Stone's correct (not 100% certain), this is another type of dha. It would have been nice if he'd provided some more source or size information... F

2nd May 2006, 07:20 PM	#5
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Great Fearn and thanks. It is ages since I opened Stone to look for a blade. We should do it more frequently.

2nd May 2006, 11:26 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	You're quite welcome Artzi. I guess the "good" news is that Stone's image doesn't look to be one of your blades, so at least three of this dha type have been made. Now, if someone would come forward with more information on them. Since you've brought it forward, perhaps you'd like to name it? Personally, I think they look like cranes or herons (a heron dha?). For us Yanks, those birds look like loons, so they could be considered loony dhas, I suppose... F

3rd May 2006, 11:37 AM	#9
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Neither I 'm From the first glance, I do not recognize these pieces as a Dha/Dahb. Typical Dha seems to share upward hilt characteristic while these two pieces have downward one. This means the blades might be designed for a different martial art (or for tourist). IMHO: These two pieces are unlikely to be Dha/Dahb. Could it be islandic or african?

3rd May 2006, 02:23 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Puff. In my experience, downward-turned hilts do appear on some dha hmyaung. Perhaps these are from Burma?

4th May 2006, 02:12 AM	#12
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ian, I did suggest a crane motif, but just to play devil's advocate, the sword with the brass ferrule (bottom in first photo, top in second) has short legs and a long tail, suggesting that (perhaps) it's a stylized peacock or maybe hornbill. That would indicate a south Asian origin. The crane/heron is suggested mostly by the long bill, and for all we know, these are supposed to be woodpeckers or kingfishers. I know, they don't have the crests, but it's hard to tell. Personally, with that brass ferrule, I tend to think they are from SE Asia, and I suspect that they're more for show than for fighting or work. Fearn