Massive Flask for comment

kahnjar1 · 27th September 2017, 10:52 PM

Just received this monster and would like some comment please.
It looks to be Moroccan and I suspect that it is designed for carrying bulk quantities of powder.
The stopper has a hollow base which could well be used for measured amounts of powder. The chain was not attached when I received the flask but it is no doubt the original one, and is now in place.
Top to bottom it measures approx. 14 1/2" (37cm) and the diam. of the body is approx. 9"(23cm)
All suggestions/comments welcome.
Stu

thinreadline · 28th September 2017, 08:01 AM

how fantastic !

estcrh · 28th September 2017, 12:31 PM

Nice one, somebody needed a lot of powder, it reminds me of images of Ottoman zeibek with huge powder flasks. I guess it was something you would not want to run out of.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th September 2017, 04:03 PM

Possibly Ottoman ....maybe Moroccan but I would say German...

kahnjar1 · 29th September 2017, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Possibly Ottoman ....maybe Moroccan but I would say German...

German???Really??? What evidence do you have for that please?

Battara · 30th September 2017, 12:03 AM

I too was thinking Moroccan.........

rickystl · 30th September 2017, 02:42 PM

Hi Stu.

WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan.
One of the first things I noticed was that it was made with carrying rings. At first, I thought it might be used to carry some type of liquid (wine ? LOL) But the stopper would be the wrong design for that. Liquid was carried in wood containers or leather boas. And, there appears to be no flat on the bottom of the flask to stand upright on a table or flat surface. So, Hmmmm.
I do remember reading somewhere in my reference material that the Ottomans would assign specific individuals to carry the larger containers of bulk powder to refill the other troops flasks while on campaign. In Europe and North America large, full-size steer horns were used (called storage horns) to store the powder from the wood transport barrels. Ultimately for the same purpose.
This flask, to me, looks like it was made maybe in the early 20th Century (?)
There sure is a lot of hand work in this flask. It was made to carry something, but I don't know what. LOL But again, the lack of a flat bottom and the carrying rings tells me it was designed for shoulder suspension or horse/camel carry. It's certainly attractive and would look great on display.

Stu: Is there any evidence of black powder ?

Rick

Kubur · 30th September 2017, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan.
Rick

Yep at a first look it's Moroccan, but if you look well at the decorations, they are very Ottoman... And they were no Ottomans in Morocco... I vote for Algeria...
20th c. maybe - but before 1916...

kahnjar1 · 30th September 2017, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.

WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan.
One of the first things I noticed was that it was made with carrying rings. At first, I thought it might be used to carry some type of liquid (wine ? LOL) But the stopper would be the wrong design for that. Liquid was carried in wood containers or leather boas. And, there appears to be no flat on the bottom of the flask to stand upright on a table or flat surface. So, Hmmmm.
I do remember reading somewhere in my reference material that the Ottomans would assign specific individuals to carry the larger containers of bulk powder to refill the other troops flasks while on campaign. In Europe and North America large, full-size steer horns were used (called storage horns) to store the powder from the wood transport barrels. Ultimately for the same purpose.
This flask, to me, looks like it was made maybe in the early 20th Century (?)
There sure is a lot of hand work in this flask. It was made to carry something, but I don't know what. LOL But again, the lack of a flat bottom and the carrying rings tells me it was designed for shoulder suspension or horse/camel carry. It's certainly attractive and would look great on display.

Stu: Is there any evidence of black powder ?

Rick

Hi Rick,
Not for liquid IMHO. As you say, liquid was usually in either wooden or leather containers.
Evidence of powder? Maybe..... as there is a lump of something loose inside the flask, of what looks to me to be powder which has got damp and gone solid. Dark grey colour, but I am not going to risk trying to break it down as friction can ignite it if indeed it IS powder. Don't see what else it could be.
Stu

kahnjar1 · 21st October 2019, 10:20 PM

Interesting how things turn up eventually.
I see in Thinreadline's latest thread re flask ID, that there is a pic/woodcut showing the guy in the middle with one of these large flasks.
At least I can now be reasonably sure that the origin is Morocco.
Stu

Philip · 22nd October 2019, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

And they were no Ottomans in Morocco...

Not even in front of armchairs??

Kubur · 22nd October 2019, 08:44 AM

I think you are right Stu, it has to be Moroccan
let's say 80% chances... Still i can see some Algerian Ottoman influences 20%...
Please see the one attached labelled Moroccan powder flask 20th c
For the one on the engraving, be careful it might be another kind, see the pic...

kahnjar1 · 22nd October 2019, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I think you are right Stu, it has to be Moroccan
let's say 80% chances... Still i can see some Algerian Ottoman influences 20%...
Please see the one attached labelled Moroccan powder flask 20th c
For the one on the engraving, be careful it might be another kind, see the pic...

Certainly not the "beehive" type due to depicted size. In the pic, compare the size of the flask including the spout, to the length of the rifle stocks. No guarantee that things are "to scale" but the flask length including the spout is as long as the rifle stock from the butt to the trigger.
Stu

ariel · 22nd October 2019, 10:01 PM

I hope that instead of water or gunpowder the owner carried in it a goodly dose of Arak.

For wound sterilizing, of course:-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd October 2019, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

German???Really??? What evidence do you have for that please?

There isn't any> was that a spelling mistake and what I meant to type was Algerian?? I don't know. anyway its certainly not German! having said that here's a German round drum shaped Powder Flask not related >>>but I searched for a link anyway>>>> I have seen many like the one you illustrate from Morocco>

Kubur · 23rd October 2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

There isn't any> was that a spelling mistake and what I meant to type was Algerian?? I don't know. anyway its certainly not German! having said that here's a German round drum shaped Powder Flask not related >>>but I searched for a link anyway>>>> I have seen many like the one you illustrate from Morocco>

Actually Ibrahiim you are not so wrong.

Most of the Moroccan powder flasks have been inspired by European models : Dutch and English.

I don't know if the one that you posted is German, it might be Silesian (not far).
The little cooper nails are very similiar to Ottoman / Balkans types...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd October 2019, 10:39 AM

You are absolutely right Kubur; an excellent point well taken Sir!

corrado26 · 23rd October 2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't know if the one that you posted is German, it might be Silesian (not far).
.

Just for info: Silesia was since 1740 until 1945 with interruptions part of the Prussian territory. Before 1740 it was part of the Holy Roman Empire. So the flask is definitely a German one
corrado26

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th October 2019, 11:13 AM

The flask is without doubt Moroccan...It may have also been used in other regions like Algeria but firstly it is Islamic since it has the hand of fatima five geometry to its design centred on the central red dot and the 6 pointed star... plus in the picture above at #10 it is drawn on a Moroccan warrior holding a Moroccan gun and wearing Moroccan clothing amongst others dressed in the same way...Including a left hand man wearing a Nimcha.

But why such a huge flask for gunpowder for which you need to see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23466 t #22 which outlines the poor quality powder needing more of it to be poured into the barrel and the reason why barrels needed to be so long... to achieve a fuller burn. other magrebi flasks show the design of 5 pointer stars (there is no difference in the use of either) as below~

Kubur · 24th October 2019, 11:54 AM

A hexagram on the obverse of Moroccan 4 falus coin, dated AH 1290 (AD 1873/4).
The seal of Solomon is very common in Morocco.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th October 2019, 01:07 PM

Here it is as a ring...and more star examples on flasks.

ariel · 24th October 2019, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Not even in front of armchairs??

No.
They had only sectionals. But one could choose the upholstery.

22nd October 2019, 08:44 AM	#12
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I think you are right Stu, it has to be Moroccan let's say 80% chances... Still i can see some Algerian Ottoman influences 20%... Please see the one attached labelled Moroccan powder flask 20th c For the one on the engraving, be careful it might be another kind, see the pic... Attached Images

24th October 2019, 11:13 AM	#19
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The flask is without doubt Moroccan...It may have also been used in other regions like Algeria but firstly it is Islamic since it has the hand of fatima five geometry to its design centred on the central red dot and the 6 pointed star... plus in the picture above at #10 it is drawn on a Moroccan warrior holding a Moroccan gun and wearing Moroccan clothing amongst others dressed in the same way...Including a left hand man wearing a Nimcha. But why such a huge flask for gunpowder for which you need to see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23466 t #22 which outlines the poor quality powder needing more of it to be poured into the barrel and the reason why barrels needed to be so long... to achieve a fuller burn. other magrebi flasks show the design of 5 pointer stars (there is no difference in the use of either) as below~ Attached Images

24th October 2019, 11:54 AM	#20
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	A hexagram on the obverse of Moroccan 4 falus coin, dated AH 1290 (AD 1873/4). The seal of Solomon is very common in Morocco. Attached Images

24th October 2019, 01:07 PM	#21
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Here it is as a ring...and more star examples on flasks. Attached Images

27th September 2017, 10:52 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Massive Flask for comment Just received this monster and would like some comment please. It looks to be Moroccan and I suspect that it is designed for carrying bulk quantities of powder. The stopper has a hollow base which could well be used for measured amounts of powder. The chain was not attached when I received the flask but it is no doubt the original one, and is now in place. Top to bottom it measures approx. 14 1/2" (37cm) and the diam. of the body is approx. 9"(23cm) All suggestions/comments welcome. Stu Attached Images

28th September 2017, 08:01 AM	#2
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	how fantastic !

28th September 2017, 12:31 PM	#3
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Nice one, somebody needed a lot of powder, it reminds me of images of Ottoman zeibek with huge powder flasks. I guess it was something you would not want to run out of.

29th September 2017, 04:03 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Possibly Ottoman ....maybe Moroccan but I would say German...

30th September 2017, 12:03 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I too was thinking Moroccan.........

30th September 2017, 02:42 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Stu. WOW!!! That's a big one !!! I would guess Moroccan or Algerian, probably Moroccan. One of the first things I noticed was that it was made with carrying rings. At first, I thought it might be used to carry some type of liquid (wine ? LOL) But the stopper would be the wrong design for that. Liquid was carried in wood containers or leather boas. And, there appears to be no flat on the bottom of the flask to stand upright on a table or flat surface. So, Hmmmm. I do remember reading somewhere in my reference material that the Ottomans would assign specific individuals to carry the larger containers of bulk powder to refill the other troops flasks while on campaign. In Europe and North America large, full-size steer horns were used (called storage horns) to store the powder from the wood transport barrels. Ultimately for the same purpose. This flask, to me, looks like it was made maybe in the early 20th Century (?) There sure is a lot of hand work in this flask. It was made to carry something, but I don't know what. LOL But again, the lack of a flat bottom and the carrying rings tells me it was designed for shoulder suspension or horse/camel carry. It's certainly attractive and would look great on display. Stu: Is there any evidence of black powder ? Rick

21st October 2019, 10:20 PM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Origin is Morocco by the look of it................ Interesting how things turn up eventually. I see in Thinreadline's latest thread re flask ID, that there is a pic/woodcut showing the guy in the middle with one of these large flasks. At least I can now be reasonably sure that the origin is Morocco. Stu Attached Images

22nd October 2019, 10:01 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I hope that instead of water or gunpowder the owner carried in it a goodly dose of Arak. For wound sterilizing, of course:-)

23rd October 2019, 10:39 AM	#17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	You are absolutely right Kubur; an excellent point well taken Sir!