Crimean Tatars knives in the 18th century

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

if IT HELPS MUCH OF THIS AUTHORS WORK IS TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH. PLEASE SEE
https://www.translatetheweb.com/?fro..._de_Peyssonnel

Thank you very much. I have this book in Russian. But unfortunately, such books need to be read in the original. In the language in which they were written. Unfortunately, quite often the translator wants the text to be "beautiful" in the language into which he translates the original text... Errors can occur because of this...

By the way, if this is interesting to someone. I think that Peyssonnel wrote from other people's words about 100 workshops (shops) in Bakhchisarai and 400,000 knives that they allegedly make in a year in the Crimean Khanate ... I found a work by Simon Pallas, , who himself traveled through the Crimean Khanate and writes that In 1793 in Bakhchisarai there were only 23 workshops (or shops) with knives.

[ariel]

Well, there is a problem with historiography...

And here is free hint:

Peysonnel was in Crimea in 1753. Many things might have happened in 40 years. Such as, for example, a minor adjustment in the scenery: annexation of Crimea by the Russian Empire in 1783. The usual practice of any occupant is to cut down on the manufacture of weapons by the locals.

Crimean Khanate in 1793 was no more, and still is no more.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, there is a problem with historiography...

And here is free hint:

Peysonnel was in Crimea in 1753. Many things might have happened in 40 years. Such as, for example, a minor adjustment in the scenery: annexation of Crimea by the Russian Empire in 1783. The usual practice of any occupant is to cut down on the manufacture of weapons by the locals.

Crimean Khanate in 1793 was no more, and still is no more.

Thank you very much for your information. You are not quite right on several issues ... 1) Peyssonnel was in the Crimea from 1753 to 1757. 2) The Russian Empire did not annex the territory of Crimea. Crimea was joining as a result of the war. And the war, in turn, was provoked by regular raids of the Crimean Tatars into the territory of the Russian Empire. Since the 15th century, 3 million captives passed through the slave markets in Crimea (Alan Fisher “Muscovy and the Black Sea Slave Trade”, Canadian American Slavic Studies, 1972, Vol. 6, pp. 575-594.). I think you should read Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan. He writes in detail about what the Crimean Tatars did with the Russians and Ukrainians. The easiest thing was capturing people and selling Russians and Ukrainians into slavery ...
https://archive.org/details/descript...00beau/page/46

Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan. Description d'Ukranie, qui sont plusieurs provinces du Royaume de Pologne.
"Dans ce iour qui est d'vne semaine ils font assembler tout leur butin, qui consiste en esclaues, & en bestcaux & partagent le tout entr'eux; c'est vne chose qui toucheroit le cœur des plus inhumains, de voir lors là separation d'vn mary d'auec sa femme, d'vne mere d'auec sa fille, sans esperance de se pouuoir iamais reuoir, entrans dans l'esclauage deplorable de Payens Mahumetans, qui leur font milles indiguitez. Leur brutalité leur faisant cómettre vne infinité de saletez, comme de violer les filles, forcer les femmes presence des peres & de leurs maris: mesme circoncir leurs enfans deuant eux pour estrepresentez à Mahomet. En fin le cœur des plus infensibles fremiroit d'entendre les cris & les chants, parmy les pleurs & gemissemens de ces malheureux Rus. Car cette nation chante & hurle en pleurant, ces miserables sont donc separez par cy par là, les vns pour Constantinople, les autres pour le Crime, & d'autre pour la Natolie, & c. voila en peu de mots, comme les Tartares sont des leuées & des rafles de peuples au nombre de plus de 50. mil ames, en moins de deux femaines, & comme ils traictent leurs esclaues, apres auoir fait leurs partages, puis les vendent selon que bon leur semble lors qu'ils sont retournez en leurs pays".

When Russia officially notified the European powers of the joining of Crimea, only France protested. In response to the French protests, the President of the Collegium of Foreign Affairs, I. A. Osterman, reminded the French envoy that Catherine II had at one time “impartially and indifferently gazed” at the “possession of Corsica”, and therefore expects a “equally impartial and indifferent” attitude of the French king to the joining of Crimea to Russia, “seeking only to calm the borders” of the Russian Empire
3) At the time of Simon Pallas's journey, Crimea was joining to Russia for only 10 years. You are absolutely right when you say that the winners in the conquered territories are trying to reduce the production of weapons. But ... The same Pallas writes that five gunsmith workshops work in Bakhchisarai. It would be logical to ban their work, and not the work of stores that sell knives and various tools made of iron ...

I hope I managed to write quite understandably. I apologize in advance for my bad English.

[ariel]

I am not talking about military history . Wars are cruel in general, and this is true for both sides, especially long ago. Slavery was the usual way of life in Russia and Crimean Khanate. Russia occupied Crimea not because it wanted to end slavery: it was a land grab to gain better access to the Black Sea. Read about Potemkin. Do not forget that having occupied Ukraine, Russians in the same 1783 extended slavery from their territory to millions of formerly free Ukrainian peasants. This was well more than 3 mln Ukrainians and Caucasians sold by the Crimean Tatars over centuries.
This Forum is not for political discussions. We are just talking about the veracity of numbers, no more. Who is right and who is wrong is not a topic of my attempt to help you to think clearly and use historiography instead of wishful thinking.


Be it as it may, Crimean Khanate was forcibly absorbed into Russian Empire in 1783 and Beauplan visited it 10 years later. More than enough time for the Russian occupiers to close the number of weapon-producing workshops.
It is possible that Peysonnel erred in his report of 400,000 knives per year or was hoodwinkled by the locals, or misunderstood, or... anything else. But one has to take into account the inevitable possibility that the production of edged weapons was dramatically cut down
No different from the British restrictions in India, Spanish in the Philippines, Americans in the post WW2 Japan etc.

Not taking it into account invites wrong conclusions.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am not talking about military history . Wars are cruel in general, and this is true for both sides, especially long ago. Slavery was the usual way of life in Russia and Crimean Khanate. Russia occupied Crimea not because it wanted to end slavery: it was a land grab to gain better access to the Black Sea. Read about Potemkin. Do not forget that having occupied Ukraine, Russians in the same 1783 extended slavery from their territory to millions of formerly free Ukrainian peasants. This was well more than 3 mln Ukrainians and Caucasians sold by the Crimean Tatars over centuries.
This Forum is not for political discussions. We are just talking about the veracity of numbers, no more. Who is right and who is wrong is not a topic of my attempt to help you to think clearly and use historiography instead of wishful thinking.


Be it as it may, Crimean Khanate was forcibly absorbed into Russian Empire in 1783 and Beauplan visited it 10 years later. More than enough time for the Russian occupiers to close the number of weapon-producing workshops.
It is possible that Peysonnel erred in his report of 400,000 knives per year or was hoodwinkled by the locals, or misunderstood, or... anything else. But one has to take into account the inevitable possibility that the production of edged weapons was dramatically cut down
No different from the British restrictions in India, Spanish in the Philippines, Americans in the post WW2 Japan etc.

Not taking it into account invites wrong conclusions.

If this forum is not for political discussions, I don’t understand why you start talking about the annexation of Crimea by Russia in 1783. If you write about Potemkin, then you should know that this was not the first war with the Crimean Khanate. And that the initial reasons were precisely because every year the Crimean Tatars took into slavery 20,000 Russians and Ukrainians. By the way, you probably forgot that Ukraine at that time (from the middle of the 17th century) was part of the Russian Empire. Speaking about slavery in Russia, you probably mean serfdom? It was a shameful phenomenon ... About the same as slavery in the USA, which was abolished in 1865. Slavery in the Crimea was different. Crimean Tatars specifically attacked neighboring states in order to capture slaves. I hope you understand the difference.

However, really enough about politics.

If we are talking about historiography, you are not very attentive ... Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan was in the Crimea in the 17th century (the years of his life 1595-1673). Simon Pallas was in Crimea 10 years after Crimea joining Russia in 1793. But as I wrote above, Pallas writes that 5 weapons workshops and 23 shops (or workshops) selling knives and various iron tools worked in Bakhchisarai. Probably the Russians, for some reason, have not seen 5 weapons workshops in Bakhchisarai for 10 years
Because, according to your logic, they should have closed exactly these 5 weapons workshops. By the way, we have actual data on a reduction in the production of weapons in India, but there is no data on a reduction in the production of weapons in Crimea. I suspect you'll talk about logic. But I would prefer the facts.

Now about the figure of 400,000 knives, allegedly produced in the Crimean Khanate in one year. In the mid-18th century, the entire population of Crimea totaled less than 400,000 people (this includes women and children). These are just figures for thought If at that time 400,000 knives were produced in the Crimean Khanate a year, then even over 5 years 2 million knives were produced. The question is, where are all these knives now? Given that Peyssonnel writes about “luxurious knives” that even got to Paris, these “Crimean” knives should have been preserved to this day in a significant amount ...

Perhaps you have some kind of information about weapons workshops in the cities of the Crimean Khanate (for example, in Bakhchisarai) in the mid-18th century. Then this information can be compared with the data provided by Simon Pallas at the end of the 18th century. This would be really valuable and interesting information.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

If we are talking about historiography, you are not very attentive ... Guillaume Le Vasseur de Beauplan was in the Crimea in the 17th century (the years of his life 1595-1673). Simon Pallas was in Crimea 10 years after Crimea joining Russia in 1793.

You are correct here: I typed the wrong name. My fault.
The rest stands.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

You are correct here: I typed the wrong name. My fault.
The rest stands.

The rest is more than debatable ...

Do you have any information about weapons workshops in the cities of the Crimean Khanate (for example, in Bakhchisarai) in the mid-18th century?
This would be much more interesting than your erroneous reasoning on history And even more so it will be more on the topic of the forum