Italian or spanish navaja old knife ?

[Fernando K]

Hello
"Q U I" is Italian, means HERE, in this world. Therefore, it seems to me that the razor is Italian

Affectionately

[francantolin]

Hello,

Thank you Fernando(s) : )

Yes maybe dialect of spain
( catalan is really different from spanish )

Or maybe sardinian-corsican italian knife ?...

Kind regards

Francky

[bvieira]

Hello,

it's spanish, model used in 19th and beginning 20th century, i have one similar, but it was some silver engravings.

Regards,

BV

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by bvieira

Hello,

it's spanish, model used in 19th and beginning 20th century, i have one similar, but it was some silver engravings.

Regards,

BV

Yours is French, made for the Spanish market in the late 19th century. See pg 149 of Forton's `Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion'.

Edit: Had a bit more time to look in my library and it appears that this folder was made by the French maker Girodias. Reference pg347 in Forton's La Navaja Espanola Antigua.

Cheers
Chris

[francantolin]

Hello everybody,

Really nice knife BV !!

Thank you Chris for your precious comments,
I'll have to buy this book !

Kind Regards

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Yours is French, made for the Spanish market in the late 19th century. See pg 149 of Forton's `Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion'.

Edit: Had a bit more time to look in my library and it appears that this folder was made by the French maker Girodias. Reference pg347 in Forton's La Navaja Espanola Antigua.

Cheers
Chris

Hello Chris,

Did not know that, tks! by the way do you know the value this knife today ?

Regards,

BV

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

... by the way do you know the value this knife today ...

Sorry Bruno ... no value appraisals here ; you can do it by PM (private message).

Here is page 347 of Forton's.


.

[francantolin]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

Thank you Fernando(s) : )

Yes maybe dialect of spain
( catalan is really different from spanish )

Or maybe sardinian-corsican italian knife ?...

Kind regards

Francky

A funny example of big difference between catalan and spanish:

''Please'' said '' Por favor'' in spanish
and became '' Si'us plau '' in Barcelona , ( written on old walls of the city )
coming from the french '' S'il vous plait'' ( close to the frontier...)

[francantolin]

Originally Posted by francantolin

A funny example of big difference between catalan and spanish:

''Please'' said '' Por favor'' in spanish
and became '' Si'us plau '' in Barcelona , ( written on old walls of the city )
coming from the french '' S'il vous plait'' ( close to the frontier...)

Tha's too why they want their independence

[kronckew]

According to a compadre, the book mentioned is good for nice pics and there is some good info in it if you read Spanish but most of the info in it about certain knives from certain regions is wrong, an Spanish expert has authored books in Spain along with his mentor has told my mutual friend that this book did have some good info in it but should not be used as a definitive source of info for researching navaja's. We were discussing it a few days ago outside the forum in relation to one he was considering. Anyway, I cannot as yet discuss it tho it looks very similar to the one originally posted, tho with a blonde horn grip and appears to be smaller. It is inscribed with a dedication mentioning Sevilla and dated in the mid 19c.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by kronckew

According to a compadre, the book mentioned is good for nice pics and there is some good info in it if you read Spanish but most of the info in it about certain knives from certain regions is wrong, an Italian expert has co-authored books in Italy along with his mentor has told my mutual friend that this book did have some good info in it but should not be used as a definitive source of info for researching navaja's. We were discussing it a few days ago outside the forum in relation to one he was considering. Anyway, I cannot as yet discuss it tho it looks very similar to the one originally posted, tho with a blonde horn grip and appears to be smaller. It is inscribed with a dedication mentioning Sevilla and dated in the mid 19c.

Interesting. Which of the two of Forton's books referred to was your source criticizing?

......but most of the info in it about certain knives from certain regions is wrong,<snip>

Any specific examples?

As a generalization, antique Spanish folding knives are very difficult to identify because the majority are undated and do not carry the maker's name. This was attributed to the harasement and persecution of the cutlers by the authorities of the day.

....has told my mutual friend that this book did have some good info in it but should not be used as a definitive source of info for researching navaja's.

So what does he suggest as better alternatives?


Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

I'll ask them.

The example I mentioned is marked to Sevilla, and has a very specific date commemorating an event as well, I'll save a photo for after it is sold, possibly to my friend, or me if he isn't bidding on it.

How's your Spanish?

[fernando]

So Waine, it would be a miracle if there were no wrong info in Forton's work, and you may bet that your compadre's acquainted Italian experts will not be the first ones to exclude imprecisions in their work as well. Have you had a look to Forton's work? the bibliography he has consulted counts no less than some seventy six authors/works ... two, being Italian.
Indeed Forton's work has not been translated but, neither was that of the Italian experts. And Forton's so far had a third edition published ... 'corrected and augmented'.
My knowledge of navajas is nihil; i am more focusing on the certainty with which some folks determine that the other guy's work has flaws, letting transpire that theirs is perfect ... as opposed to the old saying; my neighor's hen is (always) fatter than mine .
It will be interesting to check on that example you talk about, to see whether that navaja was made i don't know where and later had the Sevilla dedication added.

[kronckew]

Mea culpa, nothing to do with Italy, see above. I'm going to have a glass of Taylor's Port and lie down....If I can find the Bottle in my new kitchen, they finished remodelling it Friday.

I suspect the book they were referring to was indeed Forton's, probably an older edition, in Spanish.

I'm gonna stop digging anyway before the hole gets too deep to claw my way back out.

===================Stop the Presses==============
One more spade full: It was indeed Fortan's book he was referring to.

My navaja guy contacted his SPANISH expert who told him the Pictures in the Forton Navaja book are pretty, but the descriptive parts are better excised and used for toilet paper. He was a bit more descriptive, so i toned it down a bit.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

..."Q U I" is Italian, means HERE, in this world...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...The inscription reads like misspelled Spanish...

Yet some plausibility applies in this case; QUI and QUIEN were relative terms, back in the middle ages; apparently this left track till 'the other day'.

" Algo más posterior es el estudio de Elvira sobre la sintaxis de los relativos qui y quien en español antiguo15. A partir de un corpus de textos medievales, analiza los usos sintácticos de los pronombres qui y quien en relativas con antecedente explícito "


.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yet some plausibility applies in this case; QUI and QUIEN were relative terms, back in the middle ages; apparently this left track till 'the other day'.

" Algo más posterior es el estudio de Elvira sobre la sintaxis de los relativos qui y quien en español antiguo15. A partir de un corpus de textos medievales, analiza los usos sintácticos de los pronombres qui y quien en relativas con antecedente explícito "


.

Thank you for that clarification.

Cheers
Chris