Stiletto for comments ... please

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2019, 07:38 PM

Alex, I caught that one as well when pulling up the site, absolutely excellent sources, again thank you.

Fernando, I know its not necessary, but wanted to express my appreciation. The best thing here is that one never stops learning, even 'novices' like me who have been in the game most of my life (at 74 thats a lot of time!).
Its the joy of learning FROM these weapons everyone shares that is the magic.

fernando · 22nd October 2019, 12:34 PM

I have been digging into the mystique that involves this type of daggers, namely their name, their typology and their purpose.
Concerning their name, i am amazed to have found one more; stiletto, fusetto, centoventi ... and now regola; the last two obviously referring to the ‘scales’ marked between notches in the blade.
As typology (if i may call it so) it appears to descend from the famous misericordia.
The purpose; starting by their sharp point, we may select one or all of three uses, cleaning the cannon touch hole, piercing the gunpowder bags and plug the touch hole in case of retreat in battle.
And at last, the more controversial ; marked from 1 to 120 (apparently always 1-3-6-9-12-14-16-20-30-40-60-90-100-120), is often being conotated with the calibres measurement, probably as it looks like the immediate simple inferrement. But looking at assumptions made by those considered experts in the matter, this is rather improbable according to some and even stated as being something else by others.

From Daghe & Coltelli “Apparati per la tavola e la guerra nel Rinascimento europeo”
… other versions of the same dagger, reported notches on the blade ("stiletto centoventi") and it was said that it was also an instrument used by gunners to measure the calibres of the guns; but this interpretation, contested by many experts, for the disparity of the measurements and the arrangement of the same on the blade, left space also to another legend: being a weapon easily concealable and for this very often prohibited, that the excuse of professional use could be a valid reason for possession.

Or ...

From “Quaderni Friulani di Archeologia VII/1997 by FABRIZIO BRESSAN”
The shape of dagger is recognised in fusetto or centoventi, the style at one's disposal to the Veneti gunners used approximately from the middle of the XVII century to the whole Seven hundred; the weapon is distinguished for one characteristic staircase, in notched numbers from 1 to 120 (why the name) that, carved on one of the faces of blade they were representing a reminder of calibres (to note, not their "measure") used by artilleries of the then Serene Highness.

Having that said, and considering that, at the period, such concealable daggers were highly prohibited to carry around, as per abundant published material, we could gather that, the markings on the blade, were only a subterfuge to illude the law, by giving them a professional attribution; their actual utility not being the issue.

batjka · 25th October 2019, 02:57 PM

Pardon my ignorance, but where can I find some documentation that daggers were prohibited in Venice? My understanding is that up until early 18th century, swords and daggers could be openly carried by city state citizens.

For example, Cosimo Medici was described as "wearing a coat of mail under his jerkin, a sword and a dagger hanging from his belt, and with numerous small stiletti, with very sharp points, almost as fine as needles, stuck into the lining of his scabbard as into a needdle-case".

fernando · 25th October 2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

Pardon my ignorance, but where can I find some documentation that daggers were prohibited in Venice? My understanding is that up until early 18th century, swords and daggers could be openly carried by city state citizens...

Maybe trying harder some references may be found ... just kidding

.
For all we know, the prohibition of carrying a determined weapon, for its special specifity, is implicitely excluded from the right to carry weapons in general. We could perhaps take Spanish navajas, crossbows, or (cup hilted) swords with off mark blades, for pertinent examples...

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

...For example, Cosimo Medici was described as "wearing a coat of mail under his jerkin, a sword and a dagger hanging from his belt, and with numerous small stiletti, with very sharp points, almost as fine as needles, stuck into the lining of his scabbard as into a needdle-case".

A member from the previledged Medici family is hardly an example

; and the centoventi as such, appeared almost four centuries after he has gone to heaven. Maybe the prohibition of such concealable weapon was result of flourishing Cosimo's imitators; this assuming that, his fixation for wandering around with such arsenal, was a fact.

... And by the way; how is your Italian?
From Guida del raccoglitore e dell'amatore di Armi Antiche - 1900

.

batjka · 25th October 2019, 07:16 PM

Thank you for your reply, Fernando. Cosmo Medici wondered about with such arsenal in early to mid-16th century, right when these "gunners' stiletti" appeared on the scene. I also take sources from early 20th century with a grain of salt, scholarship had moved on since then and many early theories about bearing arms in the early modern period were debunked

I will take your advise and look for references.

Obrigado

M ELEY · 26th October 2019, 02:43 AM

I assumed that not ALL weapons had the ban, just stilettos based on their concealability and assumed use as an 'assassin's weapon', much as switchblade knives were/are illegal in parts of the U.S.

fernando · 26th October 2019, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by batjka

...Cosmo Medici wondered about with such arsenal in early to mid-16th century, right when these "gunners' stiletti" appeared on the scene...

What am i missing, batjka ?
MY COSMO existed 1389-1464, and the gunner's stiletto in a centoventi dress appeared by mid 1700 ... am i wrong ?

batjka · 26th October 2019, 08:27 PM

While gunners' stiletto did appear in the 17th century, stiletto as a weapon form came about much earlier, in the 15th century.

I would love to see actual city statutes that prohibit stiletti as "dangerous weapons". A lot of what we assume today is an invention of 19th century historians. Take Langes Messer, for example. It was long claimed that this weapon form became popular because it was a workaround statutes prohibiting citizens from wearing swords. So people started wearing "long knives" because they were "not a sword". We now know that it is a complete and utter nonsense. Burghers were not prohibited from wearing swords and if they were this technicality would not have helped them. A knife-type hilt construction came about due to guild regulations where knifemakers were able to get into a sword making business.

25th October 2019, 02:57 PM	#3
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Pardon my ignorance, but where can I find some documentation that daggers were prohibited in Venice? My understanding is that up until early 18th century, swords and daggers could be openly carried by city state citizens. For example, Cosimo Medici was described as "wearing a coat of mail under his jerkin, a sword and a dagger hanging from his belt, and with numerous small stiletti, with very sharp points, almost as fine as needles, stuck into the lining of his scabbard as into a needdle-case". Last edited by batjka; 25th October 2019 at 03:13 PM.

25th October 2019, 07:16 PM	#5
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Thank you for your reply, Fernando. Cosmo Medici wondered about with such arsenal in early to mid-16th century, right when these "gunners' stiletti" appeared on the scene. I also take sources from early 20th century with a grain of salt, scholarship had moved on since then and many early theories about bearing arms in the early modern period were debunked I will take your advise and look for references. Obrigado Last edited by batjka; 25th October 2019 at 11:06 PM.

4th October 2019, 07:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Alex, I caught that one as well when pulling up the site, absolutely excellent sources, again thank you. Fernando, I know its not necessary, but wanted to express my appreciation. The best thing here is that one never stops learning, even 'novices' like me who have been in the game most of my life (at 74 thats a lot of time!). Its the joy of learning FROM these weapons everyone shares that is the magic.

22nd October 2019, 12:34 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have been digging into the mystique that involves this type of daggers, namely their name, their typology and their purpose. Concerning their name, i am amazed to have found one more; stiletto, fusetto, centoventi ... and now regola; the last two obviously referring to the ‘scales’ marked between notches in the blade. As typology (if i may call it so) it appears to descend from the famous misericordia. The purpose; starting by their sharp point, we may select one or all of three uses, cleaning the cannon touch hole, piercing the gunpowder bags and plug the touch hole in case of retreat in battle. And at last, the more controversial ; marked from 1 to 120 (apparently always 1-3-6-9-12-14-16-20-30-40-60-90-100-120), is often being conotated with the calibres measurement, probably as it looks like the immediate simple inferrement. But looking at assumptions made by those considered experts in the matter, this is rather improbable according to some and even stated as being something else by others. From Daghe & Coltelli “Apparati per la tavola e la guerra nel Rinascimento europeo” … other versions of the same dagger, reported notches on the blade ("stiletto centoventi") and it was said that it was also an instrument used by gunners to measure the calibres of the guns; but this interpretation, contested by many experts, for the disparity of the measurements and the arrangement of the same on the blade, left space also to another legend: being a weapon easily concealable and for this very often prohibited, that the excuse of professional use could be a valid reason for possession. Or ... From “Quaderni Friulani di Archeologia VII/1997 by FABRIZIO BRESSAN” The shape of dagger is recognised in fusetto or centoventi, the style at one's disposal to the Veneti gunners used approximately from the middle of the XVII century to the whole Seven hundred; the weapon is distinguished for one characteristic staircase, in notched numbers from 1 to 120 (why the name) that, carved on one of the faces of blade they were representing a reminder of calibres (to note, not their "measure") used by artilleries of the then Serene Highness. Having that said, and considering that, at the period, such concealable daggers were highly prohibited to carry around, as per abundant published material, we could gather that, the markings on the blade, were only a subterfuge to illude the law, by giving them a professional attribution; their actual utility not being the issue.

26th October 2019, 02:43 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I assumed that not ALL weapons had the ban, just stilettos based on their concealability and assumed use as an 'assassin's weapon', much as switchblade knives were/are illegal in parts of the U.S.

26th October 2019, 08:27 PM	#8
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	While gunners' stiletto did appear in the 17th century, stiletto as a weapon form came about much earlier, in the 15th century. I would love to see actual city statutes that prohibit stiletti as "dangerous weapons". A lot of what we assume today is an invention of 19th century historians. Take Langes Messer, for example. It was long claimed that this weapon form became popular because it was a workaround statutes prohibiting citizens from wearing swords. So people started wearing "long knives" because they were "not a sword". We now know that it is a complete and utter nonsense. Burghers were not prohibited from wearing swords and if they were this technicality would not have helped them. A knife-type hilt construction came about due to guild regulations where knifemakers were able to get into a sword making business.