Hindu Armour and the Katar?

B.I · 1st May 2006, 12:03 AM

hi jens,
there is a fantastic stone sculpture of durga in its classic pose of slaying the buffulo demon in the british museum. it is dated to the 13thC and hails from orissa. durga holds an array of weapons (many hands did these old hindu dieties have) including a strange spike attached to a rectangular shield. the shield is held by a clear fist, and the spike (definately not a blade) projects down quite far, and into the demons chest.
this statue has not been published (as far as i know) and i have always thought this 'weapon' to be a possible forerunner of the pata. i wonder if instead, it can be classed as a fist dagger, although the fact that it is attached to a shield is a major factor (not mentioned by oppert in his classification of a maustika).
another unknown hindu weapon then?
hi jim,
robert does mention the maustika in his glossary, but only a very brief description, in which he cites his reference as burton.

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2006, 02:10 AM

Thanks very much Jens, I'll check Abe!! Not sure about 'angular' or what the eel word is, Spanish is a bit rusty without my handy dictionary.

Interesting notes on this shield Brian. It seems someplace in our earlier research, there was some Russian shield with dagger in the center but cannot recall location of that reference. It would seem that arming a defensive implement such as a shield with a dagger has been known in numerous instances, including the Indian 'madu' used allegedly by mendicants. Possibly the concept of transverse grip, as typically found in shields, and the thrusting dagger incorporated in a shield led to the concept of this feature in katar and pata? As always, we get to the million dollar question of where and when this innovation occurred.

Then we get to the puzzle of the so called 'manople'...the Moorish (?) thrusting, gauntlet boarding dagger seen under that heading in Stone (also found in Calvert, "Spanish Arms & Armour"). If this weapon indeed came from Spain, or anywhere in the Islamic sphere, might it have been the source for the Indian gauntlet weapons?

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 1st May 2006, 11:33 AM

hi jim,
i have always had a thing for patas (my passion for armour is as strong as it is for arms, and the pata crosses between the two). i have been meaning to go to madrid to see this weapon for some time, and will definately try this year. i cant have an opinion from stones image, so would love to see it properly.
the spiked shield i mentioned is used in the same way, as the spike protrudes downwards (and not out the middle, or the sides). so, with the fist clenched, the weapon is not dissimilar to a short pata or long katar. i have images somewhere which i will try and dig out.

fernando · 1st May 2006, 01:04 PM

Angulas are baby eels; theyr catching is controversial and somehow ilegal, but they are served in the finest restaurants.
I saw the way they catch them here, its quite a scene.
The word comes from the latin anguilla.
fernando

fernando · 1st May 2006, 02:29 PM

There is this book written by Rainer Daehnardt, someone assumedly within this Indian weaponry and armor subject, from which i would like to interpreter a little part:
The Pata, like the Katar, are weapons of Hindu invention.
Its named after the Pathans, a subdivision of the Xatrias, a warrior cast. It was much used in the Marathas Kingdoms, and by Sikhs and Rajputs. Patas must have appeared by the first quarter of the XVI century, with a major use of european blades ... a small percentage captured from the discoverers, but mainly the introduction of "ilegal length" european blades brought by Venetians and Portuguese. This way a well handled Pata could keep a standard lenght rapier out of reach. For the same reason it also used by cavalry.
The Pata can be considered a Katar turned into a sword. The handle system is precisely the same. There is no doubt it was the ideal type of sword, it just didn't become more popular, as its handling needed some school.
Among several pictures, we can see ( so he aledges ) the oldest existing Pata, one of the beg. XVI century, with a XV-XVI cent. Navigators blade, and an example used by Hindus that served as auxiliary Portuguese troops, with a blade inscription devoted to the Portuguese King, XVIII century.
I thought this could help enlightning the provenance of both these weapons.
fernando

B.I · 1st May 2006, 03:13 PM

hi fernando,
what you say is right, except i would not try to put a beginning date on this weapon. the jury is not out on its origins and i have hope of someone finding more information at some point during our lifetimes.
examples do exist from the 16thC, but i have never seen one that i would consider to be early 16thC. would it be possible to show the image here, or to provide the reference so i can find the book myself.
many thanks.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st May 2006, 04:13 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thank you for solving the angulas question

. Now, if 12 angulas is the same as 9 inches, that would make 1 angula about 1.95 cm - I remember them bigger. Anyway, it is strange to use the same word for a measure in one country and for a fish in another country - unless of course they have something to do with each other. What do you think?
Interesting translation you made - thank you.

Goddess Durga Mahisasuramardini. C.10th century.
In her principal right hand she holds a trident (trisula) which pierces the conquered demon in human form as he tries to leave the body of the buffalo. The principal left hand clutches the hair of the demon. In the uppermost pair of hands Durga holds a sword (khadga) and a shield (khetaga). The second pair holds a bowl (patra) or a scull-cup (kapala), and a bell (ghanta)(?), and the third pair an arrow (sara) and a bow (capa).
There is one thing, which keeps coming back to me, when we discuss the bronzes.
Let us say that a bronze made in the 10th c. showed the weapons used at the time – in this case a sword. For some reason or other they, at the same place, wanted to make a bronze representing the same deity three hundred years later. The form of the sword had changed somehow in the past period. Would they copy the sword from the old bronze, or would they use the type used at the time? I think they would copy the old one. Did you ever see a bronze with a shamshir, or a khanda for that matter, no you have not, they are wearing straight double-edged swords, possibly with a broader tip, or a leaf shaped blade, with a very old type of hilt. They were not even so modern as to use a hand guard.
I can’t say they did not make changes, but I think changes must have been very moderate, if any was made, so I think, when using bronzes in our search, we are looking for very old weapon types.

1st May 2006, 04:13 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, Thank you for solving the angulas question. Now, if 12 angulas is the same as 9 inches, that would make 1 angula about 1.95 cm - I remember them bigger. Anyway, it is strange to use the same word for a measure in one country and for a fish in another country - unless of course they have something to do with each other. What do you think? Interesting translation you made - thank you. Goddess Durga Mahisasuramardini. C.10th century. In her principal right hand she holds a trident (trisula) which pierces the conquered demon in human form as he tries to leave the body of the buffalo. The principal left hand clutches the hair of the demon. In the uppermost pair of hands Durga holds a sword (khadga) and a shield (khetaga). The second pair holds a bowl (patra) or a scull-cup (kapala), and a bell (ghanta)(?), and the third pair an arrow (sara) and a bow (capa). There is one thing, which keeps coming back to me, when we discuss the bronzes. Let us say that a bronze made in the 10th c. showed the weapons used at the time – in this case a sword. For some reason or other they, at the same place, wanted to make a bronze representing the same deity three hundred years later. The form of the sword had changed somehow in the past period. Would they copy the sword from the old bronze, or would they use the type used at the time? I think they would copy the old one. Did you ever see a bronze with a shamshir, or a khanda for that matter, no you have not, they are wearing straight double-edged swords, possibly with a broader tip, or a leaf shaped blade, with a very old type of hilt. They were not even so modern as to use a hand guard. I can’t say they did not make changes, but I think changes must have been very moderate, if any was made, so I think, when using bronzes in our search, we are looking for very old weapon types.

1st May 2006, 12:03 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, there is a fantastic stone sculpture of durga in its classic pose of slaying the buffulo demon in the british museum. it is dated to the 13thC and hails from orissa. durga holds an array of weapons (many hands did these old hindu dieties have) including a strange spike attached to a rectangular shield. the shield is held by a clear fist, and the spike (definately not a blade) projects down quite far, and into the demons chest. this statue has not been published (as far as i know) and i have always thought this 'weapon' to be a possible forerunner of the pata. i wonder if instead, it can be classed as a fist dagger, although the fact that it is attached to a shield is a major factor (not mentioned by oppert in his classification of a maustika). another unknown hindu weapon then? hi jim, robert does mention the maustika in his glossary, but only a very brief description, in which he cites his reference as burton.

1st May 2006, 02:10 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,676	Thanks very much Jens, I'll check Abe!! Not sure about 'angular' or what the eel word is, Spanish is a bit rusty without my handy dictionary. Interesting notes on this shield Brian. It seems someplace in our earlier research, there was some Russian shield with dagger in the center but cannot recall location of that reference. It would seem that arming a defensive implement such as a shield with a dagger has been known in numerous instances, including the Indian 'madu' used allegedly by mendicants. Possibly the concept of transverse grip, as typically found in shields, and the thrusting dagger incorporated in a shield led to the concept of this feature in katar and pata? As always, we get to the million dollar question of where and when this innovation occurred. Then we get to the puzzle of the so called 'manople'...the Moorish (?) thrusting, gauntlet boarding dagger seen under that heading in Stone (also found in Calvert, "Spanish Arms & Armour"). If this weapon indeed came from Spain, or anywhere in the Islamic sphere, might it have been the source for the Indian gauntlet weapons? All the best, Jim

1st May 2006, 11:33 AM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, i have always had a thing for patas (my passion for armour is as strong as it is for arms, and the pata crosses between the two). i have been meaning to go to madrid to see this weapon for some time, and will definately try this year. i cant have an opinion from stones image, so would love to see it properly. the spiked shield i mentioned is used in the same way, as the spike protrudes downwards (and not out the middle, or the sides). so, with the fist clenched, the weapon is not dissimilar to a short pata or long katar. i have images somewhere which i will try and dig out.

1st May 2006, 01:04 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Angulas are baby eels; theyr catching is controversial and somehow ilegal, but they are served in the finest restaurants. I saw the way they catch them here, its quite a scene. The word comes from the latin anguilla. fernando

1st May 2006, 02:29 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There is this book written by Rainer Daehnardt, someone assumedly within this Indian weaponry and armor subject, from which i would like to interpreter a little part: The Pata, like the Katar, are weapons of Hindu invention. Its named after the Pathans, a subdivision of the Xatrias, a warrior cast. It was much used in the Marathas Kingdoms, and by Sikhs and Rajputs. Patas must have appeared by the first quarter of the XVI century, with a major use of european blades ... a small percentage captured from the discoverers, but mainly the introduction of "ilegal length" european blades brought by Venetians and Portuguese. This way a well handled Pata could keep a standard lenght rapier out of reach. For the same reason it also used by cavalry. The Pata can be considered a Katar turned into a sword. The handle system is precisely the same. There is no doubt it was the ideal type of sword, it just didn't become more popular, as its handling needed some school. Among several pictures, we can see ( so he aledges ) the oldest existing Pata, one of the beg. XVI century, with a XV-XVI cent. Navigators blade, and an example used by Hindus that served as auxiliary Portuguese troops, with a blade inscription devoted to the Portuguese King, XVIII century. I thought this could help enlightning the provenance of both these weapons. fernando

1st May 2006, 03:13 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi fernando, what you say is right, except i would not try to put a beginning date on this weapon. the jury is not out on its origins and i have hope of someone finding more information at some point during our lifetimes. examples do exist from the 16thC, but i have never seen one that i would consider to be early 16thC. would it be possible to show the image here, or to provide the reference so i can find the book myself. many thanks.