OLD DAGGER

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 01:08 AM

The workmanship of Spanish colonial can be both bizarre and quite creative. When in a fix, they knew how to improvise. Because of the 'ersatz' nature of these pieces, it can cause much confusion in traditionalist collectors, who only see them as parts-swords/daggers or broken-up original patterns. In reality, they are their own unique forms, often one-off and folk-artsy, if you know what I mean. Thus, many collectors thumb their nose to them. I, on the other hand, find them unique and fascinating! You have a great piece there, Nickolas! Congrats!

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 01:14 AM

Here are two examples from my collection. The first has interesting iron-work bars to the hilt with an over sized horn grip.

The second is a takeoff of the m1728 pattern, with a homemade wooden grip, crude wire, older cut-down sword blade, brazed guard lacking the quillon/pas d'ane or other amenities and a bowl from another sword. All of the correct period and displaying proper aging (i.e. not a later put-together blacksmith project-

)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th September 2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Here are two examples from my collection. The first has interesting iron-work bars to the hilt with an over sized horn grip.

The second is a takeoff of the m1728 pattern, with a homemade wooden grip, crude wire, older cut-down sword blade, brazed guard lacking the quillon/pas d'ane or other amenities and a bowl from another sword. All of the correct period and displaying proper aging (i.e. not a later put-together blacksmith project-

)

I am concerned that the item at #1 is put together by a blacksmith and not original. Your items display what I am looking for in an old piece which has aged over the centuries and is without a hard corner ...all the angles are softened with age... The project weapon, on the other hand, is full of sharp corners.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

bvieira · 30th September 2019, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I am concerned that the item at #1 is put together by a blacksmith and not original. Your items display what I am looking for in an old piece which has aged over the centuries and is without a hard corner ...all the angles are softened with age... The project weapon, on the other hand, is full of sharp corners.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree.

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 04:16 PM

Hello Ibrahiim and good to hear from you. Well, you do have a point there. Hard to tell without the item in hand (yes, I know. The ole fall-back

)

kronckew · 30th September 2019, 04:31 PM

Just because it's crude doesn't mean it's not 'original'.

see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVL46CM9k80

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY_GYDq-nJY

M ELEY · 30th September 2019, 06:21 PM

Point well taken, Wayne. It's just so hard to say with these type pieces. A blacksmith-made weapon and primitive nature is not what's in question. I think Ibrahiim's point is a question of actual age and usage. This piece has potential for both being a legit item versus a mock-up.

broadaxe · 30th September 2019, 08:30 PM

Something to take in consideration: 'sail' hilt daggers were mostly high-end objects, meaning the fit & finish on them were taken with effort and precision.

30th September 2019, 01:14 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Here are two examples from my collection. The first has interesting iron-work bars to the hilt with an over sized horn grip. The second is a takeoff of the m1728 pattern, with a homemade wooden grip, crude wire, older cut-down sword blade, brazed guard lacking the quillon/pas d'ane or other amenities and a bowl from another sword. All of the correct period and displaying proper aging (i.e. not a later put-together blacksmith project- ) Attached Images

30th September 2019, 01:08 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	The workmanship of Spanish colonial can be both bizarre and quite creative. When in a fix, they knew how to improvise. Because of the 'ersatz' nature of these pieces, it can cause much confusion in traditionalist collectors, who only see them as parts-swords/daggers or broken-up original patterns. In reality, they are their own unique forms, often one-off and folk-artsy, if you know what I mean. Thus, many collectors thumb their nose to them. I, on the other hand, find them unique and fascinating! You have a great piece there, Nickolas! Congrats!

30th September 2019, 04:16 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Ibrahiim and good to hear from you. Well, you do have a point there. Hard to tell without the item in hand (yes, I know. The ole fall-back )

30th September 2019, 04:31 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	Just because it's crude doesn't mean it's not 'original'. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVL46CM9k80 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY_GYDq-nJY

30th September 2019, 06:21 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Point well taken, Wayne. It's just so hard to say with these type pieces. A blacksmith-made weapon and primitive nature is not what's in question. I think Ibrahiim's point is a question of actual age and usage. This piece has potential for both being a legit item versus a mock-up.

30th September 2019, 08:30 PM	#8
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Something to take in consideration: 'sail' hilt daggers were mostly high-end objects, meaning the fit & finish on them were taken with effort and precision.