Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

Victrix · 28th September 2019, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,

It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/A...an-Talwar-Hilt

fernando · 29th September 2019, 05:58 PM

Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned.

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fernando · 29th September 2019, 06:13 PM

Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ?
Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess.

(Toledo Army Museum)

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Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2019, 07:39 PM

Points noted Jim,
So, between the two 'unlikely' probabilities, the Italian blade mounted in a Spanish plug (hunting) bayonet would be the more likely one.
No such mention in he caption, though

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Reventlov · 8th October 2019, 03:05 PM

Here is an interesting example of the single millrind mark - on the same blade appears the "Passau wolf". The sword is suggested to be Italian, being exceptionally similar to one in a well known painting... So should we suppose this is an example of a contemporary faked Passau mark? Or perhaps the millrind is indeed not a personal maker's mark, as I think was suggested above...

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...=80&pos=41

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2019, 03:42 PM

Excellent example Reventlov! and the sword illustrated is of course compellingly similar to that in the painting.
I do not believe the 'mill rind' stamp is confined to any single maker, or it would appear just as with other marks (as the 'Passau wolf' noted) that it was to a particular center in any of the countries well known for blade and arms making.

I have often wondered if Italy ever used the Passau wolf, and in my perception it seems doubtful, however the use of the mill rind of course did occur in German context. It seems feasible that a German blade could have ended up in Italy as blades were typically sent to hilting locations there, and a blade from Passau may have easily been used just as the blades from Italian makers.

From reading some time ago (I believe in Wagner) it was said that Solingen often produced blades for Passau makers, and applied the wolf in accord with those 'contracts' (?). Such are the conundrums of specific classifications in these clearly diversified circumstances.

29th September 2019, 05:58 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	For those fans of ethimology ... and semanthics ? Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 29th September 2019 at 06:31 PM.

29th September 2019, 06:13 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Can you believe this ? Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ? Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess. (Toledo Army Museum) . Attached Images

2nd October 2019, 07:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Points noted Jim, So, between the two 'unlikely' probabilities, the Italian blade mounted in a Spanish plug (hunting) bayonet would be the more likely one. No such mention in he caption, though . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 3rd October 2019 at 05:06 PM.

8th October 2019, 03:05 PM	#5
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	Here is an interesting example of the single millrind mark - on the same blade appears the "Passau wolf". The sword is suggested to be Italian, being exceptionally similar to one in a well known painting... So should we suppose this is an example of a contemporary faked Passau mark? Or perhaps the millrind is indeed not a personal maker's mark, as I think was suggested above... https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...=80&pos=41 Attached Images

8th October 2019, 03:42 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Excellent example Reventlov! and the sword illustrated is of course compellingly similar to that in the painting. I do not believe the 'mill rind' stamp is confined to any single maker, or it would appear just as with other marks (as the 'Passau wolf' noted) that it was to a particular center in any of the countries well known for blade and arms making. I have often wondered if Italy ever used the Passau wolf, and in my perception it seems doubtful, however the use of the mill rind of course did occur in German context. It seems feasible that a German blade could have ended up in Italy as blades were typically sent to hilting locations there, and a blade from Passau may have easily been used just as the blades from Italian makers. From reading some time ago (I believe in Wagner) it was said that Solingen often produced blades for Passau makers, and applied the wolf in accord with those 'contracts' (?). Such are the conundrums of specific classifications in these clearly diversified circumstances.