Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

For those who are interested in the history of the time from different view points I can highly recommend Amin Maalouf’s The Crusades through Arab Eyes [2004] which uses contemporary Arab chronicles and eye witnesses accounts of the time. From the Foreword: “These latter [contemporary Arab chroniclers] spoke not of Crusades, but of Frankish wars, or ‘the Frankish invasions’. The word designating the Franks was transcribed in many ways, according to the region, author, and period. In the various chronicles, we find Faranj, Faranjat, Ifranj, Ifranjat, and other variants. For the sake of consistency, I have chosen to use the briefest form, Franj, a word which is used in colloquial Arabic even today to designate Westeners, and the French in particular.”

Incidentally, Frankreich, the German word for France, means Land of the Franks.

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

While really only indirectly off tangent, it should be noted that the 'sickle marks' which are regarded as 'Genoan' and often bracket the FRINGIA word, are on occasion found with this 'mill rind' (twig, fly) marking in place of the word.
As we are looking at the use and possible origin of this mark of the OP, it is interesting that on occasion it is seen within the sickle marks which at times hold the FRINGIA word. I agree with your explanation of the similarity of Fringia and Firangi, and can see how these might be phonetically transcribed.

What is most unusual however is that on East European swords, many are found with these FRINGIA markings. Is it possible that blades intended for release to Middle Eastern trade, might have ended up used in the European context in which they were produced instead of being exported?

We see the Fringia term written, but I have yet to see any with the word Firangi or its variations. Perplexing !

Still the explanation makes perfect sense. It is good to look further into these Italian markings, and these words which sometimes appear related.

[kronckew]

foreign: outsider, from the roman foraneus, someone from outside your empire/nation.

Firengi phonetically sounds a lot like that. Portugese traders and their latin speaking priests were trading there quite early (as were the egyptians, romans etc. for ages. they likely referred to themselves as foraneus.

Fringe: another word used above. 14c old French ( ) Franki Feranki - ferengi - fringy - frenchy (etc. ad nauseum)- word from the latin for the fibrous border or edge of a woven cloth, used here as on the fringes, or beyond the fringes, ie. foreign, firengi. Japanese: Gaijin = literally an outer person, foreigner - Portugese were for a long time the only 'outsiders' allowed in Japan, again mainly Priests who spoke latin in churches to their converts.

Loaner Words get around a lot it seems. getting local vowel drift, and mis-speilingks as it wends it's way thru it's travels.