Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire.


Yes Jim you have point, which is interesting, but I do not have the knowlege to answer it, it would take a lot of research, in an area where I have far too little knowledge.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire ...

No ball ... or any other game, Jens; no such reaction needed . I know no more than what i have read so often. When i get home i may be able to define this in detail.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities. When I went to a gold shop in an Arabian Gulf soukh 10 years ago to repair a contemporary gold chain, the proprietor gave me a beady eyed look and inquired whether it was “franji” (i.e. Western European, or Swedish in my particular case) gold. In contrast Orthodox or Byzance is called Rûm (as in East Rome or Constantinople) by muslims. So the local Orthodox hospital in Beirut is called Al Roum Hospital. They have used these terms for 1,000 years as far as I know as nations came and went.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities...

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

[Jim McDougall]

Struggling through old notes, found this re: Italian blades in India

"...in 1691 we have note of an incident that throws light on the existence of so many European swords in use in India. It appears that in May of that year, Sir John Chardin, agent for the Armenian nation, presented a petition from Bogos Ariel, Davod and Zacaiia Parsijian, Armenian merchants who had contracted with the EIC of England to carry upon their ships the trade which they formerly did with Italy".

It appears that the source of the blades now to be carried are said to be from 'Nuremberg' and to the 'East Indies'. It appears that due to the restrictions in England on receiving German blades due to importing restrictions led to the dispersing of these blades into India. The Mahrathas did not think much of English blades, but very much favored German.

In the events in the Indian Ocean involving the notorious Captain Kidd, a virtual byword for 'pirate', his greatest infraction was the overtaking of a vessel in use in trade for India, and it does seem this was chartered or owned by Armenian merchants.

It would seem that much of the entry of European blades into India by this time was through trade conveyed by Armenian merchants. It would appear that these industrious merchants were instrumental in trade in a number of spheres in addition to India. The conveyance of trade blades into India, whether Italian or German, seem to have been brought in through these kinds of trades vessels by this time in the 17th century.

In the 17th century, the blade making industry in Toledo had faltered, and there was a great reliance on Germany for blades, while Italy still maintained a notable presence in producing them as well. The cross mingling of markings and spurious use of names etc. make the identification of blades to either very difficult in many cases. I am unaware of Portuguese blade producers, and had thought their blades to have been largely Solingen products, much as were the English trade venues.

The material on the Armenian conveyance:
"The Export of European Blades to India"
by Lord Dillon
in 'Archaeological Journal' Vol. LXii , p.67, 69-72

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

For those who are interested in the history of the time from different view points I can highly recommend Amin Maalouf’s The Crusades through Arab Eyes [2004] which uses contemporary Arab chronicles and eye witnesses accounts of the time. From the Foreword: “These latter [contemporary Arab chroniclers] spoke not of Crusades, but of Frankish wars, or ‘the Frankish invasions’. The word designating the Franks was transcribed in many ways, according to the region, author, and period. In the various chronicles, we find Faranj, Faranjat, Ifranj, Ifranjat, and other variants. For the sake of consistency, I have chosen to use the briefest form, Franj, a word which is used in colloquial Arabic even today to designate Westeners, and the French in particular.”

Incidentally, Frankreich, the German word for France, means Land of the Franks.

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

Absolutely. It all depends on the context.