Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

Jens,

It’s absolutely fascinating that sword or at least blade making in old days tend to be concentrated to locations with iron, wood and water. Also, in the area of the alps sword making is an ancient craft where the Celts were known to have possessed the secrets of how to make objects out of iron. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is where swords were mostly produced until 19thC when they could be mass produced. I wish we knew more about the sword smiths and their ancient craft.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Victrix,


It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century.
It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India...

Well Jens, all those bundles of blades taken by the Portuguese (firangi) for trade in India, were in fact of Italian manufacture.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire.


Yes Jim you have point, which is interesting, but I do not have the knowlege to answer it, it would take a lot of research, in an area where I have far too little knowledge.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire ...

No ball ... or any other game, Jens; no such reaction needed . I know no more than what i have read so often. When i get home i may be able to define this in detail.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities. When I went to a gold shop in an Arabian Gulf soukh 10 years ago to repair a contemporary gold chain, the proprietor gave me a beady eyed look and inquired whether it was “franji” (i.e. Western European, or Swedish in my particular case) gold. In contrast Orthodox or Byzance is called Rûm (as in East Rome or Constantinople) by muslims. So the local Orthodox hospital in Beirut is called Al Roum Hospital. They have used these terms for 1,000 years as far as I know as nations came and went.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities...

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

Absolutely. It all depends on the context.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

For some reason, I am always of the impression that Italy was not particularly involved in any sort of mass export of blades. Most of what I have seen in accounts of Italian swords are that the blade makers produced their blades, which were then sent to hilt makers (for example in Brescia etc) and the sword in entirety was then to the client or armourer.
Many swords in the Wallace collection are seen with Italian blades but German hilts, sometimes even vice versa, so perhaps these were simply remounting exchanges.

I think the most prevalent evidence for exported blades would have been the Genoan (and surrounding cities) which is suggested by the noted copy of the famed sickle marks, which are notably copied by many Indian artisans on their blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Finally got my faithful Elgood, , "Hindu Arms & Ritual",
With the notes concerning the Armenian involvement in the transport of goods including sword blades into India, it is noted this was in the latter 17th c.

As the Portuguese presence began with Vasco de Gama in 1498 at Calicut and Elgood (p.39) notes the assumption that 'European' blades were entering Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from beginning of 16th c.

It is noted further that most of the European blades appear to have been from the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, and those described are rapier blades (p.38). It is also noted that many European blades had passed into Arab and Turk hands and unknown quantities preceded the Portuguese in falling into the hands of the indigenous peoples of India.

In 1514, Pires describes TRADE GOODS SENT FROM VENICE TO INDIA INCLUDING ARMS, so this is interesting as it sounds as if this was via a Portuguese transport.

It is noted that through the 16th century Portuguese relations in Vijayanagara were good and included their supplying allies with arms.
This however seems to have changed in about 1606 when Dutch began challenging Portuguese monopoly and they were defeated by the ruler of Jaffna, with many weapons captured.
Apparently the Marathas also captured many arms from them later, by early 18th c. The Dutch began dominating trade markets and clearly the blades were by this time German.

Tavernier records weapons at Surat as long rapiers probably sold by English or Portuguese, and it seems these were 16th c. with most tending to be German, but some being Spanish and Italian.

Basically it seems that from contact and through 16th century there was a predominance of blades presumably through Portuguese sourcing, but they were not exclusively Italian, but mostly German with a number of Iberian and Italian blades.

By early 17th century, the Dutch as well as EIC became key suppliers and these were primarily German blades. While it is noted that ANDREA FERARA blades were among these, we know of course that these were produced in great number in Solingen from early to mid 17th into 18th century.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/A...an-Talwar-Hilt

[fernando]

Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned.

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[fernando]

Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ?
Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess.

(Toledo Army Museum)


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[Jim McDougall]

Points noted Jim,
So, between the two 'unlikely' probabilities, the Italian blade mounted in a Spanish plug (hunting) bayonet would be the more likely one.
No such mention in he caption, though


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