Kaskara thoughts, please.

Edster · 19th September 2019, 05:44 PM

Mross,

I'm glad the kaskara essays were useful. I agree with both Iain and Jim. Well done. I would differ with the seller as to age. R. Cronau's book attributes all three marks to Peter Kull in 1847. Bezdek gives the cat and cross & orb to Peter Kull (1830-1870) and the fly to Samuel Kull (1847-1860).

Back in July we had a good discussion about copper filled Kull marks.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nlayed+kaskara

Best regards,
Ed

mross · 19th September 2019, 07:29 PM

Excellent! Thanks. Brass inlay makes sense it, I did not think it was copper. So it looks to be around 1847 or so?

Just followed the link above and saw my sword at the end of the discussion. Cool. One point of interest, on mine it has two flys one is under the crossguard. That would make a pretty convincing argument it was made at the time the blade was made and before the cross guard was added. So a new question; How did these sword parts come together? Was a complete sword made in Solingen or were blades shipped to Africa to be assembled from local parts there?

Iain · 19th September 2019, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Excellent! Thanks. Brass inlay makes sense it, I did not think it was copper. So it looks to be around 1847 or so?

Just followed the link above and saw my sword at the end of the discussion. Cool. One point of interest, on mine it has two flys one is under the crossguard. That would make a pretty convincing argument it was made at the time the blade was made and before the cross guard was added. So a new question; How did these sword parts come together? Was a complete sword made in Solingen or were blades shipped to Africa to be assembled from local parts there?

Yes the blade is circa 1850. The guards were also exported it appears. There is a period French reference for this. The inlay is almost certainly local. So potentially the guard is European made. Very hard to say. The majority of guards seem to be locally made.

mross · 19th September 2019, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Yes the blade is circa 1850. The guards were also exported it appears. There is a period French reference for this. The inlay is almost certainly local. So potentially the guard is European made. Very hard to say. The majority of guards seem to be locally made.

Cool. So it seems safe to say this is a Kull blade?

Edster · 19th September 2019, 09:27 PM

I think in the included link the copper was pored rather than inlayed cold. Also, we have at least three kaskara with the same copper treatment into Kull swords, plus the takubas previously noted. This suggests to me a common source. It would have to be a shop capable of melting copper, likely a jewelry. Since we have takuba blades, maybe the shop was in Tunis, and your kaskara blade was traded into Sudan, likely Darfur. This is all speculation, but sounds reasonable.

A final question remains; WHY? Why would an importer or jeweler do this on a wholesale basis. Would potential purchasers consider them special?

Iain · 19th September 2019, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I think in the included link the copper was pored rather than inlayed cold. Also, we have at least three kaskara with the same copper treatment into Kull swords, plus the takubas previously noted. This suggests to me a common source. It would have to be a shop capable of melting copper, likely a jewelry. Since we have takuba blades, maybe the shop was in Tunis, and your kaskara blade was traded into Sudan, likely Darfur. This is all speculation, but sounds reasonable.

A final question remains; WHY? Why would an importer or jeweler do this on a wholesale basis. Would potential purchasers consider them special?

Yes, it mimics European latten work on blade marks which I have detailed on various takouba before. Just two examples are attached.

I think as well it was likely done in bulk in a workshop for precisely this reason, as well as the talismanic properties

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2019, 11:48 PM

I think we can safely say this is a Kull blade, and I hope Iain and Ed will agree as they are the true authorities on these swords here.
It seems that in the many years I have been fascinated by these kaskara, I have seen these latten (copper or brass filled marks) in a good number of their blades, and typically with the cross and orb, if not with the lion as well.

The fly mark is indeed for Kull (Bezdek, 72.73.74) and suggests the c. 1847+ date. It does seem that there was a distinct market for blades, and even crossguards in the third quarter + to the Sudan (Les Soudan: ses rapport aveck commerce European, 1871). I do not have more on citing this source but I know Iain has it.

In one reference which I think was Slatin (Rudolf Slatin, who was governor general in Darfur in 1882) who surrendered to Mahdist forces in 1883 and was in captivity for 11 years...….mention is made of swords, which were being brought in from Austria. There were some with double head eagle (Holy Roman insignia of Austro-Hungary) but I feel sure that mention was made of the cross and orb and the lion on numbers of these. Naturally these would be presumed of German origin.
In references such as Robb (1924,describing Masri blades with lion and cross and orb) as well as Briggs (1965) the presence of these distinctly marked blades is well established.

The cross on the cross guard center has typically been regarded as a Darfur affinity from the post Khalifa period or Ali Dinar period of early 20th but references show it was used in Sudan prior to that.

If I were to imagine the trajectory of these clearly Kull blades (so marked with fly) I would agree that an entrepot in North African port with the facilities for melting copper/brass as suggested by Ed and Iain, likely applied the talismanically oriented devices on the blades . These then entered the trade networks which clearly went to varied centers including Darfur, where seen by Slatin.

In all, a remarkable sword regardless of its hilt condition, and beautifully represents these historic times and events in the Mahdiyya period.

19th September 2019, 05:44 PM	#1
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Mross, I'm glad the kaskara essays were useful. I agree with both Iain and Jim. Well done. I would differ with the seller as to age. R. Cronau's book attributes all three marks to Peter Kull in 1847. Bezdek gives the cat and cross & orb to Peter Kull (1830-1870) and the fly to Samuel Kull (1847-1860). Back in July we had a good discussion about copper filled Kull marks. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nlayed+kaskara Best regards, Ed Last edited by Edster; 19th September 2019 at 07:22 PM.

19th September 2019, 07:29 PM	#2
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Excellent! Thanks. Brass inlay makes sense it, I did not think it was copper. So it looks to be around 1847 or so? Just followed the link above and saw my sword at the end of the discussion. Cool. One point of interest, on mine it has two flys one is under the crossguard. That would make a pretty convincing argument it was made at the time the blade was made and before the cross guard was added. So a new question; How did these sword parts come together? Was a complete sword made in Solingen or were blades shipped to Africa to be assembled from local parts there? Last edited by mross; 19th September 2019 at 07:58 PM.

19th September 2019, 09:27 PM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	I think in the included link the copper was pored rather than inlayed cold. Also, we have at least three kaskara with the same copper treatment into Kull swords, plus the takubas previously noted. This suggests to me a common source. It would have to be a shop capable of melting copper, likely a jewelry. Since we have takuba blades, maybe the shop was in Tunis, and your kaskara blade was traded into Sudan, likely Darfur. This is all speculation, but sounds reasonable. A final question remains; WHY? Why would an importer or jeweler do this on a wholesale basis. Would potential purchasers consider them special?

19th September 2019, 11:48 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I think we can safely say this is a Kull blade, and I hope Iain and Ed will agree as they are the true authorities on these swords here. It seems that in the many years I have been fascinated by these kaskara, I have seen these latten (copper or brass filled marks) in a good number of their blades, and typically with the cross and orb, if not with the lion as well. The fly mark is indeed for Kull (Bezdek, 72.73.74) and suggests the c. 1847+ date. It does seem that there was a distinct market for blades, and even crossguards in the third quarter + to the Sudan (Les Soudan: ses rapport aveck commerce European, 1871). I do not have more on citing this source but I know Iain has it. In one reference which I think was Slatin (Rudolf Slatin, who was governor general in Darfur in 1882) who surrendered to Mahdist forces in 1883 and was in captivity for 11 years...….mention is made of swords, which were being brought in from Austria. There were some with double head eagle (Holy Roman insignia of Austro-Hungary) but I feel sure that mention was made of the cross and orb and the lion on numbers of these. Naturally these would be presumed of German origin. In references such as Robb (1924,describing Masri blades with lion and cross and orb) as well as Briggs (1965) the presence of these distinctly marked blades is well established. The cross on the cross guard center has typically been regarded as a Darfur affinity from the post Khalifa period or Ali Dinar period of early 20th but references show it was used in Sudan prior to that. If I were to imagine the trajectory of these clearly Kull blades (so marked with fly) I would agree that an entrepot in North African port with the facilities for melting copper/brass as suggested by Ed and Iain, likely applied the talismanically oriented devices on the blades . These then entered the trade networks which clearly went to varied centers including Darfur, where seen by Slatin. In all, a remarkable sword regardless of its hilt condition, and beautifully represents these historic times and events in the Mahdiyya period.