Notes on queries

Bob A · 18th September 2019, 08:30 PM

I'd rather know the truth than otherwise. That said, there's a gap between objective truth - if such a thing exists outside the realm of hard science - and opinion.

I've encountered some blunt replies in my day, but I try to evaluate them in terms of information quality/quantity rather than taking things personally.

I don't see a need for a separate category for "Look without comment" - if a post is merely intended to be illustrative, let the poster say so, and hopefully his wishes will be respected.

Once people begin to tread too lightly to avoid hurt feelings, candid response gets lost. This site is primarily about weapons. We're tough enough to take the truth standing up.

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2019, 09:20 PM

Thank you for these responses guys!
I know exactly what is meant about the delusions!! As a young collector I was VERY wide eyed, and smitten with the notion of weapons that I had seen in of course all the movies etc. Naturally I was perfect fodder for dealers who were great story tellers and well crafted 'descriptions'.
It was not long until I realized how important it was to learn more on the true character of the weapons themselves, and my emphasis became more focused on books and references.

It is amazing to look at the weapons I acquired back in those halcyon days and the excited views I had of them as compared to the cases of more mundane heritage my more educated study had placed on them in more recent times.

However, I have often been pleasantly surprised when in some cases these worn and rough condition old warriors were eventually revealed to be more rare and historically valuable than previously imagined. That became my goal, to discover the 'true' story behind each weapon I could, regardless of outcome. I resented being faced with truth as opposed to the romantic notions I had hoped for, but often found the actual character discovered to be interesting in its own right.

These conditions of course are heartily discounted when an item is found to be a 'reproduction' or 'mule' (composite of old parts). The point I was making was that in presenting this outcome to the hopeful poster, the truth can be conditioned by thoughtful wording rather than blunt declarations of being 'fake' or other derisive comments.

As an analogy for example, an airline delay caused by weather is obviously not the airlines fault.....but what matters is the way the passengers are handled by the representatives of the airline.

Naturally one would prefer to know the truth on a weapon, but beyond the courtesy in revealing the negative outcome, the learning is profoundly important. To explain the character of the actual weapon form and the incorrect features which expose the disparity would be most helpful to the owner and those reading, and hopefully prevent such events for other readers.

Another analogy, in the movie "Road House", Patrick Swayze in instructing his 'enforcers' on getting troublesome patrons to exit the place, he emphatically noted '..but be NICE!'.

Possibly oblique here, but you get the idea.

kahnjar1 · 18th September 2019, 09:59 PM

I agree completely with the comments above. There are times I think when we all would like to "come across the table and shake someone" but holding back is the right thing to do.
It must be remembered that what is posted here, generally is opinion only, and we are all entitled to that. Even authors of some well known books are not excused from this either. We all make mistakes sometimes.
As far as the actual items posted here is concerned, I have always (I think) been happy to post items which are quite possibly of low quality or copies/fakes. By doing this we learn, and when all said and done, none of us are so called experts, and are all still learning.
For new Members who may hold back because they think that what they have is not worth showing......do not hold back, as showing your items is how you learn, and everyone started somewhere, even us who are now getting a bit long in the tooth.

Stu

A. G. Maisey · 18th September 2019, 10:29 PM

You have put your comments very nicely Jim.

It is certainly not a good idea to discourage beginning collectors by providing harsh personal opinions about something they have paid good money for. Moreover, in a Forum such as this one, those opinions can be read by everybody in the entire world, and this can cause flow-on effects for the person making the enquiry.

In addition to what you have said, I'd like to make a further comment.

When I was a child I was taught that if I could not say something nice, I'd best not say anything at all. Well, childhood is a very long way behind me now, and although I do agree in general with this line of thought, over the years I have modified it a little.

In try very hard not to make unkind remarks in public, if I feel that somebody needs to know that what they have spent their hard earned money on is not quite what they think it might be, I hesitate before making a public comment and then make a private comment in as gentle a fashion as possible to the person who has enquired.

Another thing is this. Many people are interested purely in the physical object that they collect, they have very little interest in the culture or society from which this object came. They certainly have no interest at all in absorbing the present day attitudes and values of the people who form the population of a society or region that produced the objects of interest to a collector who tends to regard something of less than a certain age as a "fake", or "reproduction".

Sometimes the thing that the collector living in his Western society might write off as "fake" or "reproduction" is regarded by the person of the society from which it came as a valid expression of their material culture.

It is perhaps a very good idea to acquaint ourselves with the attitudes and values of the society, or societies that produce the things we collect, before taking it upon ourselves to pass judgement on those things and express an opinion. Alternatively, any opinion given could be qualified to make it very clear that such opinion is based upon certain pre-determined standards or circumstances.

ariel · 19th September 2019, 12:49 AM

Kubur one defined in 2 words the reason why certain people behave in a snarky manner : ignorance and arrogance. I just cannot add anything to this pithy summary.

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2019, 05:51 PM

Stu and Alan, thank you so much for your very thoughtful and supportive comments! I really appreciate your elaboration and observations concerning this ever present situation which often occurs in threads where items are posted for comment.
Naturally, everyone has their own opinions, and every right to express them.
The point I have tried to make, as you have perfectly recognized, is that the wording and demeanor of such responses is key, and some effort to temper these is much appreciated and produces better results in subsequent discussion.

While there are many individuals who simply lack language or people skills, as Ariel has succinctly noted, even a common sense application of 'the golden rule' should not be too hard to fathom in an environment where shared interests prevail.

I often see posts where queries are accompanied by disclaimers noting, 'go ahead, be brutal, I can take it' etc. but we know that regardless, everyone appreciates candor with courtesy.

Kubur · 19th September 2019, 07:49 PM

Kubur would like to add something:
At the very end, we are gentlemen and educated people, but even more than that, I have a simple question.
How many people are interested by our crap?
Few dozen, less than one hundred? We like the same things, we have the same passion, old men hobbies, so of course guys peace and love!

Rick · 19th September 2019, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Kubur would like to add something:
At the very end, we are gentlemen and educated people, but even more than that, I have a simple question.
How many people are interested by our crap?
Few dozen, less than one hundred? We like the same things, we have the same passion, old men hobbies, so of course guys peace and love!

Kubur, if you go to the bottom of the ethno arms and armor page you can see how many people/entities are browsing the forum.
405 as this post is being written.

Only 6 members though.

Jim McDougall · 19th September 2019, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Kubur would like to add something:
At the very end, we are gentlemen and educated people, but even more than that, I have a simple question.
How many people are interested by our crap?
Few dozen, less than one hundred? We like the same things, we have the same passion, old men hobbies, so of course guys peace and love!

Interesting question indeed,
Actually our interests and fields of study are pretty diverse, but basically centered on arms and armor, which in the general interests of the population outside our collecting and study community typically has very limited exposure or interest in these topics. We know that museums and publications of general nature have increasingly tried to avoid focus on weapons in accord with the political correctness paranoia.

I know that if I mention in conversation to someone in general conversation that I am a historian in the study of arms and armor, I usually get a subdued, 'oh how interesting'. But if I say anything further in explanation, the 'glassed over eye syndrome' becomes quickly evident.

However, if you look at the tally of 'hits' on threads aside from the viewers at the moment listing Rick mentioned, the numbers indicate enormous interest over time, and suggest that people 'surfing' the web for information often hit our threads. The proportion of readers (hits) is remarkable compared to the number of responses or entries.

Here again, and I have been told this by many persons, they have admitted they often read the threads, but are apprehensive about making comments as they feel they do not 'know enough' or fear rebuke or ridicule from other writers on the threads.

To add to your 'peace and love'

I would also add two words which pertain directly to the theme I have been promoting in this thread toward responses to persons posting queries and seeking comments on their items,
"candor with courtesy".

A few choruses of 'Kumbaya' everybody !!!

19th September 2019, 12:49 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur one defined in 2 words the reason why certain people behave in a snarky manner : ignorance and arrogance. I just cannot add anything to this pithy summary. Last edited by ariel; 19th September 2019 at 03:41 AM.

18th September 2019, 08:30 PM	#1
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 443	I'd rather know the truth than otherwise. That said, there's a gap between objective truth - if such a thing exists outside the realm of hard science - and opinion. I've encountered some blunt replies in my day, but I try to evaluate them in terms of information quality/quantity rather than taking things personally. I don't see a need for a separate category for "Look without comment" - if a post is merely intended to be illustrative, let the poster say so, and hopefully his wishes will be respected. Once people begin to tread too lightly to avoid hurt feelings, candid response gets lost. This site is primarily about weapons. We're tough enough to take the truth standing up.

18th September 2019, 09:20 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Thank you for these responses guys! I know exactly what is meant about the delusions!! As a young collector I was VERY wide eyed, and smitten with the notion of weapons that I had seen in of course all the movies etc. Naturally I was perfect fodder for dealers who were great story tellers and well crafted 'descriptions'. It was not long until I realized how important it was to learn more on the true character of the weapons themselves, and my emphasis became more focused on books and references. It is amazing to look at the weapons I acquired back in those halcyon days and the excited views I had of them as compared to the cases of more mundane heritage my more educated study had placed on them in more recent times. However, I have often been pleasantly surprised when in some cases these worn and rough condition old warriors were eventually revealed to be more rare and historically valuable than previously imagined. That became my goal, to discover the 'true' story behind each weapon I could, regardless of outcome. I resented being faced with truth as opposed to the romantic notions I had hoped for, but often found the actual character discovered to be interesting in its own right. These conditions of course are heartily discounted when an item is found to be a 'reproduction' or 'mule' (composite of old parts). The point I was making was that in presenting this outcome to the hopeful poster, the truth can be conditioned by thoughtful wording rather than blunt declarations of being 'fake' or other derisive comments. As an analogy for example, an airline delay caused by weather is obviously not the airlines fault.....but what matters is the way the passengers are handled by the representatives of the airline. Naturally one would prefer to know the truth on a weapon, but beyond the courtesy in revealing the negative outcome, the learning is profoundly important. To explain the character of the actual weapon form and the incorrect features which expose the disparity would be most helpful to the owner and those reading, and hopefully prevent such events for other readers. Another analogy, in the movie "Road House", Patrick Swayze in instructing his 'enforcers' on getting troublesome patrons to exit the place, he emphatically noted '..but be NICE!'. Possibly oblique here, but you get the idea.

18th September 2019, 09:59 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,809	I agree completely with the comments above. There are times I think when we all would like to "come across the table and shake someone" but holding back is the right thing to do. It must be remembered that what is posted here, generally is opinion only, and we are all entitled to that. Even authors of some well known books are not excused from this either. We all make mistakes sometimes. As far as the actual items posted here is concerned, I have always (I think) been happy to post items which are quite possibly of low quality or copies/fakes. By doing this we learn, and when all said and done, none of us are so called experts, and are all still learning. For new Members who may hold back because they think that what they have is not worth showing......do not hold back, as showing your items is how you learn, and everyone started somewhere, even us who are now getting a bit long in the tooth. Stu

18th September 2019, 10:29 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,058	You have put your comments very nicely Jim. It is certainly not a good idea to discourage beginning collectors by providing harsh personal opinions about something they have paid good money for. Moreover, in a Forum such as this one, those opinions can be read by everybody in the entire world, and this can cause flow-on effects for the person making the enquiry. In addition to what you have said, I'd like to make a further comment. When I was a child I was taught that if I could not say something nice, I'd best not say anything at all. Well, childhood is a very long way behind me now, and although I do agree in general with this line of thought, over the years I have modified it a little. In try very hard not to make unkind remarks in public, if I feel that somebody needs to know that what they have spent their hard earned money on is not quite what they think it might be, I hesitate before making a public comment and then make a private comment in as gentle a fashion as possible to the person who has enquired. Another thing is this. Many people are interested purely in the physical object that they collect, they have very little interest in the culture or society from which this object came. They certainly have no interest at all in absorbing the present day attitudes and values of the people who form the population of a society or region that produced the objects of interest to a collector who tends to regard something of less than a certain age as a "fake", or "reproduction". Sometimes the thing that the collector living in his Western society might write off as "fake" or "reproduction" is regarded by the person of the society from which it came as a valid expression of their material culture. It is perhaps a very good idea to acquaint ourselves with the attitudes and values of the society, or societies that produce the things we collect, before taking it upon ourselves to pass judgement on those things and express an opinion. Alternatively, any opinion given could be qualified to make it very clear that such opinion is based upon certain pre-determined standards or circumstances.

19th September 2019, 05:51 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Stu and Alan, thank you so much for your very thoughtful and supportive comments! I really appreciate your elaboration and observations concerning this ever present situation which often occurs in threads where items are posted for comment. Naturally, everyone has their own opinions, and every right to express them. The point I have tried to make, as you have perfectly recognized, is that the wording and demeanor of such responses is key, and some effort to temper these is much appreciated and produces better results in subsequent discussion. While there are many individuals who simply lack language or people skills, as Ariel has succinctly noted, even a common sense application of 'the golden rule' should not be too hard to fathom in an environment where shared interests prevail. I often see posts where queries are accompanied by disclaimers noting, 'go ahead, be brutal, I can take it' etc. but we know that regardless, everyone appreciates candor with courtesy.

19th September 2019, 07:49 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Kubur would like to add something: At the very end, we are gentlemen and educated people, but even more than that, I have a simple question. How many people are interested by our crap? Few dozen, less than one hundred? We like the same things, we have the same passion, old men hobbies, so of course guys peace and love!