Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[fernando]

Apparently you guys skipped over a "detail" in that Ray is already aware that these (Veneto) marks exist, although in numbers of more than one; what he is asking is whether we are familiar with them only showing in one single presence; reason why i didn't post images of the 'multi' ones in the first place. Also we haven't yet had a picture of the whole sword, to then enable us to weave considerations on it.
But let me then play the accomplice and upload a couple pages of Armi Bianchi Italiane, where these "ferri di molino" (as they call them) appear. Pity this great work authors do not define the purpose of these marks.


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[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the Boccia & Coelho pages Fernando. I agree in most cases it is beneficial to have images of the whole sword, but for me I am OK with this image for now. I guess the reason is that this singular usage may indicate a 'trade blade' character rather than a completed sword matter.

To clarify what I meant by that designation is that it seems the singular use of this stamped mark on a blade seems to indicate Italian manufacture, but obviously that cannot be stated for certain. It simply has not seemed to me that these 'twig' marks turn up on German or other blades, and particularly not in singular case.

I think that these type marks are more of a mundane administrative device than the more distinctive makers or guild marks, which were often a matter of record as they involved compliances and ordinances. For example, these may indicate batches of swords involved in a specified contract or order.

I have seen these single marks of the twig type on blades, on schiavona and another even on a kaskara (backsword blade most unusual on these). It would seem of course that the 'blade' was independent of the sword assembly in origin in these cases, obviously with the kaskara

[BladeMan]

Thanks a lot guys, that was really helpful and is interesting.

Fernando is right, i was or am aware of that or similiar marks but i have seen them only in triples yet like in the pics of Fernando and corrado, not just one single mark. What i was wondering is if the single mark is the same maker/source as the triple marks or maybe something different that was copied or was similiar by accident.

And here is a pic of the sword in total.

[Bob A]

Deleted

[fernando]

Splendid !
Sorry my ignorance; isn't this a Storta ?
I am not qualified to judge on this sword's properties but, i would dare to sustain that, its 'lonely' ferro di molino mark looks very real. But what do i know ? . Only that i could swear that a mark/s with the same shape, depth and all, resides somewhere in our forum.

[BladeMan]

Thanks fernando!

And yes, that is a (two handed) Storta.
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams.

[fernando]

By the way Ray, does this beautiful sword belong in your personal collection ?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ray for sharing this amazing storta (well called Fernando!).
The interesting raised rib in the grip reminds me of zweihander swords of the period, and it is tempting to wonder if this may have been en suite.
We know that rapiers often came in sets in this manner with alternate hand daggers (typically termed left hand daggers ).

As far as the singular use of the well known form seen here, as Fernando has noted, surely we have seen this instance before, in fact many times, but finding it will take some of the sleuths here. I know it is possible as I am always amazed at how some of the guys here find stuff posted some time before, Rick and Fernando himself are the two that come to mind in pulling up these exemplars.

Ray, actually that is a well placed observation, that perhaps the mark (though with some commonality it seems in the makers community) might have the same origin as some of the multiple groupings. Again, as we know these marks were not to a specific maker, possibly their use in number or varied configurations might have been peculiar to a certain one.
With many commonly known devices found on blades, we know that certain ones were favored by certain makers.

In the case for example of Wundes, the use of a kings head was known to be a mark used by him and his family. There are varied examples of blades where the same kings head is punched in repeated number in groupings, sometimes as many as five or more.

This seems a prime indicator that number of marks, of the same kind, and in varied configuration, could have some esoteric significance known in the time, but unrecorded and now lost. It is yet another of the conundrums that bring sleepless nights to obsessive researchers such as yours truly

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Splendid !
Sorry my ignorance; isn't this a Storta ?
I am not qualified to judge on this sword's properties but, i would dare to sustain that, its 'lonely' ferro di molino mark looks very real. .

Nando, it fits the characteristics of size and configuration that would identify it as a storta -- a short, cutlass-type hilt weapon with a single edged blade, popular in northern Italy. This example has a blade with a deeper curve and is somewhat narrower than the majority. (Many tend to widen somewhat at the tip and have a clipped point as in the medieval falchion, as well) But anomalies are to be expected in a type that was widely used over an extended period of time.

I also agree on the mark. It's on several Italian blades in my collection, and appears singly as well as in groups.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Philip

Nando, it fits the characteristics of size and configuration that would identify it as a storta -- a short, cutlass-type hilt weapon with a single edged blade, popular in northern Italy. This example has a blade with a deeper curve and is somewhat narrower than the majority. (Many tend to widen somewhat at the tip and have a clipped point as in the medieval falchion, as well) But anomalies are to be expected in a type that was widely used over an extended period of time.

I also agree on the mark. It's on several Italian blades in my collection, and appears singly as well as in groups.

Philip we crossed posts! As always, perfect description and insight on these stortas, and well noted on the case for anomalies in them which better describes the reasons for the many variations typically seen.

[BladeMan]

@fernando, Yes it is in my collection.

The blade actually widens up towards the tip just a little at the last quarter, right where the blade becomes double edged.
But yes, it's overall narrower and deeper curved then the majority.
Frankly, those "anomalies" is what makes the most attraction for me.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Philip we crossed posts! As always, perfect description and insight on these stortas, and well noted on the case for anomalies in them which better describes the reasons for the many variations typically seen.

Thanks, Jim. The more of these things I see, the more variety in blade shapes there seem to be. It's easy to assume that there's a "classic form" of blade on these things that forms a defining benchmark, when you look at the gorgeous "droolers" with Brescian chiseled blades in Boccia / Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane. The typical contour is indeed the type with the pronounced "Bowie-knife style" clipped point.

Some perspective is gained from a selection of somewhat more plebian examples in Roberto Gotti's book Caino, which delves into the sword-blade-making industry in this small Brescian town, one of Italy's several counterparts to Passau and Solingen. Here can be seen blade types of slight curvature, and edges that are radiused to a gently upturned point -- imagine a short version of a shashka or liuyedao blade. And recently in an online auction catalog I saw one with a prominent raised yelman, making it resemble a snubnosed kilij.

Re: terminology -- These weapons were actually known by several names, the most frequent in the literature being storta ( plural: storte ). This may be a derived from a vernacular term used in the region of Veneto, where these large knives were especially popular.

An alternative term is coltella, plural coltelle , related to the standard Italian word for knife, coltello (being a Texas guy you're no doubt familiar with the Spanish cuchillo. ) Lionello Boccia also includes the term coltellaccio in the book referenced previously.