Old Khyber

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 02:19 AM

The Khyber blade is unique, and while Persia may have begun exporting trade blades at some point about early to mid 19th c. (see the excellent article "On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" Oliver Pinchot, 'Arms Collecting' Vol. 40, #1, Feb. 2002) .......they made typical sabre type blades used often on local hilts.
They were not set on producing made to order blades or weapons for trade or as far as I am aware, commissioned or custom made weapons were not a well known Persian activity. Obviously their blades and arms were highly in demand on their own..........but never heard of a Khyber blade in Persia or from Persia.

This etching is crudely done, and far from Persian quality, and the very idea of an Afghan tribesman sending a blade or weapon to Persia for etching is on the face of it, patently not likely.

The 'date' in the motif here is certainly commemorative or with some other connection, if it is indeed a date. Therefore to presume this is a date establishing a terminus post quem for the 'Khyber knife' form is insufficient.

Still this is an intriguing example of a Khyber of the 19th c. which has found its way into an unusual context, reflected by the decorative motif which has been applied to it for whatever reason. Fascinating discussion.

ariel · 14th September 2019, 03:18 AM

Jim,
We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it.

Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration.

We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan.

I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read.
Meanwhile, let’s take a break.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it.

Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration.

We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan.

I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read.
Meanwhile, let’s take a break.

It is so true that while we know the typical nature of weapons and their decoration etc. in given regions, there will always be anomalies. But that is the fascination and excitement of arms history and investigation.
It is not only conceivable but likely that Persian artisans would enter Afghan regions just as they did in many others. Their style and skills then of course would diffuse accordingly.

Of course we may never know with certainty on this intriguing Khyber, why it in such an atypical state, but honestly this discussion has been fascinating and I very much enjoy the perspective, ideas and knowledge shared here.
I hope to never stop learning, and postings like this interesting Khyber are the perfect fuel!! Thank you for so thoughtfully posting this.

Edster · 14th September 2019, 02:20 PM

Great discussion. Perhaps it is time to take a break, but apparently no one has considered the extensive text also etched on the blade. I suspect that there is a revealing story contained therein.

Regards,
Ed

mahratt · 14th September 2019, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Great discussion. Perhaps it is time to take a break, but apparently no one has considered the extensive text also etched on the blade. I suspect that there is a revealing story contained therein.

Regards,
Ed

That would be great if the text could be translated But unfortunately, these late "acid etchings" are usually meaningless. Of course, we say: "Probably the surahs of the Koran are written there". But usually on Persian items of the late 19th century and Sudanese items - "inscriptions" are not readable...

ariel · 14th September 2019, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Great discussion. Perhaps it is time to take a break, but apparently no one has considered the extensive text also etched on the blade. I suspect that there is a revealing story contained therein.

Regards,
Ed

Ed,

Many pics are with my Persian colleagues for at least partial translation. Hopefully something meaningful will come out of it. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 10:31 PM

I look forward to hearing more from Persian speakers on possibility of actual words or perhaps phrases in this acid etched motif. While as I have stated my sense is that this is a genuine tribal Khyber which has perhaps entered the Kalash (Kafir) realm, possibly a trophy.

Since like much of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan (Bukhara) Sind and Baluchistan, who all had profound Persian influences present....this was probably quite so in the Nuristan regions. However, it should be noted that the Kalash have tried to maintain their animist religious tradition and beliefs in autonomy in the areas of Chitral where they relocated after Rahman Khans incursion in 1890s.

It is curious to see such motif and affectation applied in what appears to be regarded as in Persian style but with Kalash images coupled with supposed Persian script and dating.
Could this be some sort of syncretic anomaly?

Here I would note that with decorative calligraphy, it has often been presumed that in many cases it is in effect 'jibberish' or simply approximated lettering to achieve a provocative result in imbuement of a blade.
This was the case with the heavy lettering used on Sudanese blades in the late 19th c. known as 'thuluth'. It has been discovered however, that much of this decorative calligraphy is typically in reality select phrases or wording from Koranic Surahs in numbers of examples. This however is used in repetition and sometimes with added contemporary invocations related to the Mahdi.

In the case of Persian decoration, the well known blades of the Persian trade blades of the early 19th c. (well described in Oliver Pinchot's " On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Arms Collecting, Vol. 40, #1. Feb.2002) he details the fact that these blades were decorated with a cartouche holding the Persian lion image to represent the famed makers name. While with scripted cartouche as well, this pictogram served as recognition visually for less than literate clientele. These were the kinds of considerations often used in decoration of these blades in these times of far broader availability of weapons.

Perhaps this 'decoration' is also in such manner, and Ed's suggestion is of course well placed. Hopefully Ariels resources will find for or against the matter.
Fingers crossed!!

Kubur · 14th September 2019, 11:05 PM

Guys

Just google Pamir petroglyphs or rock art, or just download the article below...
Is it possible that this sword is not from Afghanistan but from Pamir in Tadjikistan?
Or an Afghan sword decorated in Tadjikistan in the Wakhan Corridor??
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...khan-corridor/

Kubur

14th September 2019, 02:19 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	The Khyber blade is unique, and while Persia may have begun exporting trade blades at some point about early to mid 19th c. (see the excellent article "On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" Oliver Pinchot, 'Arms Collecting' Vol. 40, #1, Feb. 2002) .......they made typical sabre type blades used often on local hilts. They were not set on producing made to order blades or weapons for trade or as far as I am aware, commissioned or custom made weapons were not a well known Persian activity. Obviously their blades and arms were highly in demand on their own..........but never heard of a Khyber blade in Persia or from Persia. This etching is crudely done, and far from Persian quality, and the very idea of an Afghan tribesman sending a blade or weapon to Persia for etching is on the face of it, patently not likely. The 'date' in the motif here is certainly commemorative or with some other connection, if it is indeed a date. Therefore to presume this is a date establishing a terminus post quem for the 'Khyber knife' form is insufficient. Still this is an intriguing example of a Khyber of the 19th c. which has found its way into an unusual context, reflected by the decorative motif which has been applied to it for whatever reason. Fascinating discussion.

14th September 2019, 03:18 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it. Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration. We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan. I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read. Meanwhile, let’s take a break.

14th September 2019, 02:20 PM	#4
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Great discussion. Perhaps it is time to take a break, but apparently no one has considered the extensive text also etched on the blade. I suspect that there is a revealing story contained therein. Regards, Ed

14th September 2019, 10:31 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I look forward to hearing more from Persian speakers on possibility of actual words or perhaps phrases in this acid etched motif. While as I have stated my sense is that this is a genuine tribal Khyber which has perhaps entered the Kalash (Kafir) realm, possibly a trophy. Since like much of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan (Bukhara) Sind and Baluchistan, who all had profound Persian influences present....this was probably quite so in the Nuristan regions. However, it should be noted that the Kalash have tried to maintain their animist religious tradition and beliefs in autonomy in the areas of Chitral where they relocated after Rahman Khans incursion in 1890s. It is curious to see such motif and affectation applied in what appears to be regarded as in Persian style but with Kalash images coupled with supposed Persian script and dating. Could this be some sort of syncretic anomaly? Here I would note that with decorative calligraphy, it has often been presumed that in many cases it is in effect 'jibberish' or simply approximated lettering to achieve a provocative result in imbuement of a blade. This was the case with the heavy lettering used on Sudanese blades in the late 19th c. known as 'thuluth'. It has been discovered however, that much of this decorative calligraphy is typically in reality select phrases or wording from Koranic Surahs in numbers of examples. This however is used in repetition and sometimes with added contemporary invocations related to the Mahdi. In the case of Persian decoration, the well known blades of the Persian trade blades of the early 19th c. (well described in Oliver Pinchot's " On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah", Arms Collecting, Vol. 40, #1. Feb.2002) he details the fact that these blades were decorated with a cartouche holding the Persian lion image to represent the famed makers name. While with scripted cartouche as well, this pictogram served as recognition visually for less than literate clientele. These were the kinds of considerations often used in decoration of these blades in these times of far broader availability of weapons. Perhaps this 'decoration' is also in such manner, and Ed's suggestion is of course well placed. Hopefully Ariels resources will find for or against the matter. Fingers crossed!!