Old Khyber

mahratt · 13th September 2019, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Re: post # 60

Folks, I am lost.....
Need your help to understand the logic:
Read the first sentence of my quotation, first sentence of the response and then last sentence of the response: in that order.

Am I totally confused or is it an example of a “split mind” thinking?

Ariel, what exactly are you not clear about? I will try to explain in more understandable words, if something seemed to you not logical. It will be more correct than if the other folks try to explain my logic to you

I apologize for my poor English.

mahratt · 13th September 2019, 04:51 AM

I will try to explain to you now. But if something is not clear, please ask. Do not be shy.

1) Persia is known for exporting large quantities of shamshir blades (wootz blades and simple blades) to neighboring countries. This fact is confirmed by historical documents and a large number of undoubtedly Persian blades in India, Arabia and Central Asia.
2) Nothing is known about the fact that Persia would manufacture for export weapons not typical of Persia, but typical of another country. (if there is documentary evidence that proves that I am wrong, I will be very glad to get acquainted with them)
3) In Persia (or Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan), in exceptional cases, they made Khyber knives. These khyber knives are very elegant in the shape of a blade, have a handle that differs from the rough handles of Afghan highbers, their blades are decorated in a completely different technique.
4) The Khyber knife discussed in the subject, by all its external signs, is Afghan. There are no features in it that may indicate that it is made in Persia. In addition to "acid etching."
5) Indeed, in Persia in the 19th century actively used “acid etching” to decorate arms and armor, covering their surface with images and calligraphy. But! As Marius already wrote, the Persians began to do this in the 19th century.
6) The quality of "acid etching" in the early 19th century and at the end of the 19th century is very different. In the early 19th century - with "acid etching" you get deep and clear images. At the end of the 19th century - low-quality images (similar to images on the haber from this topic).
7) In Afghanistan, “acid etching” was not used to decorate blades.
8) How realistic is the historical combination of a typical Afghan Khyber knife and a typical Persian "acid etching"? My personal opinion is that such a combination could not exist in the 19th century. But! Even if you start to fantasize and decide that some Afghan traveled to Persia and for some reason ordered a completely non-standard jewelry on his Khyber knife, then judging by the crude "acid etching", this was done at the very end of the 19th century. That is, to call such a Khyber knife - "old khyber" or, especially, "The oldest dated Khyber I can recall" - is completely wrong.

I hope now I was able to explain what you did not understand

mariusgmioc · 13th September 2019, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I will try to explain to you now. But if something is not clear, please ask. Do not be shy.

1) Persia is known for exporting large quantities of shamshir blades (wootz blades and simple blades) to neighboring countries. This fact is confirmed by historical documents and a large number of undoubtedly Persian blades in India, Arabia and Central Asia.
2) Nothing is known about the fact that Persia would manufacture for export weapons not typical of Persia, but typical of another country. (if there is documentary evidence that proves that I am wrong, I will be very glad to get acquainted with them)
3) In Persia (or Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan), in exceptional cases, they made Khyber knives. These khyber knives are very elegant in the shape of a blade, have a handle that differs from the rough handles of Afghan highbers, their blades are decorated in a completely different technique.
4) The Khyber knife discussed in the subject, by all its external signs, is Afghan. There are no features in it that may indicate that it is made in Persia. In addition to "acid etching."
5) Indeed, in Persia in the 19th century actively used “acid etching” to decorate arms and armor, covering their surface with images and calligraphy. But! As Marius already wrote, the Persians began to do this in the 19th century.
6) The quality of "acid etching" in the early 19th century and at the end of the 19th century is very different. In the early 19th century - with "acid etching" you get deep and clear images. At the end of the 19th century - low-quality images (similar to images on the haber from this topic).
7) In Afghanistan, “acid etching” was not used to decorate blades.
8) How realistic is the historical combination of a typical Afghan Khyber knife and a typical Persian "acid etching"? My personal opinion is that such a combination could not exist in the 19th century. But! Even if you start to fantasize and decide that some Afghan traveled to Persia and for some reason ordered a completely non-standard jewelry on his Khyber knife, then judging by the crude "acid etching", this was done at the very end of the 19th century. That is, to call such a Khyber knife - "old khyber" or, especially, "The oldest dated Khyber I can recall" - is completely wrong.

I hope now I was able to explain what you did not understand

Precisely!

PS: But reading through this whole thread, it appears that the majority of people also lean towards this oppinion.
Anyhow, I loved the debate!

mahratt · 13th September 2019, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Precisely!

Thank you very much!
I already began to worry that my poor knowledge of English prevented me from expressing my thoughts logically

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 02:19 AM

The Khyber blade is unique, and while Persia may have begun exporting trade blades at some point about early to mid 19th c. (see the excellent article "On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" Oliver Pinchot, 'Arms Collecting' Vol. 40, #1, Feb. 2002) .......they made typical sabre type blades used often on local hilts.
They were not set on producing made to order blades or weapons for trade or as far as I am aware, commissioned or custom made weapons were not a well known Persian activity. Obviously their blades and arms were highly in demand on their own..........but never heard of a Khyber blade in Persia or from Persia.

This etching is crudely done, and far from Persian quality, and the very idea of an Afghan tribesman sending a blade or weapon to Persia for etching is on the face of it, patently not likely.

The 'date' in the motif here is certainly commemorative or with some other connection, if it is indeed a date. Therefore to presume this is a date establishing a terminus post quem for the 'Khyber knife' form is insufficient.

Still this is an intriguing example of a Khyber of the 19th c. which has found its way into an unusual context, reflected by the decorative motif which has been applied to it for whatever reason. Fascinating discussion.

ariel · 14th September 2019, 03:18 AM

Jim,
We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it.

Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration.

We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan.

I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read.
Meanwhile, let’s take a break.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2019, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it.

Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration.

We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan.

I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read.
Meanwhile, let’s take a break.

It is so true that while we know the typical nature of weapons and their decoration etc. in given regions, there will always be anomalies. But that is the fascination and excitement of arms history and investigation.
It is not only conceivable but likely that Persian artisans would enter Afghan regions just as they did in many others. Their style and skills then of course would diffuse accordingly.

Of course we may never know with certainty on this intriguing Khyber, why it in such an atypical state, but honestly this discussion has been fascinating and I very much enjoy the perspective, ideas and knowledge shared here.
I hope to never stop learning, and postings like this interesting Khyber are the perfect fuel!! Thank you for so thoughtfully posting this.

13th September 2019, 04:51 AM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I will try to explain to you now. But if something is not clear, please ask. Do not be shy. 1) Persia is known for exporting large quantities of shamshir blades (wootz blades and simple blades) to neighboring countries. This fact is confirmed by historical documents and a large number of undoubtedly Persian blades in India, Arabia and Central Asia. 2) Nothing is known about the fact that Persia would manufacture for export weapons not typical of Persia, but typical of another country. (if there is documentary evidence that proves that I am wrong, I will be very glad to get acquainted with them) 3) In Persia (or Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan), in exceptional cases, they made Khyber knives. These khyber knives are very elegant in the shape of a blade, have a handle that differs from the rough handles of Afghan highbers, their blades are decorated in a completely different technique. 4) The Khyber knife discussed in the subject, by all its external signs, is Afghan. There are no features in it that may indicate that it is made in Persia. In addition to "acid etching." 5) Indeed, in Persia in the 19th century actively used “acid etching” to decorate arms and armor, covering their surface with images and calligraphy. But! As Marius already wrote, the Persians began to do this in the 19th century. 6) The quality of "acid etching" in the early 19th century and at the end of the 19th century is very different. In the early 19th century - with "acid etching" you get deep and clear images. At the end of the 19th century - low-quality images (similar to images on the haber from this topic). 7) In Afghanistan, “acid etching” was not used to decorate blades. 8) How realistic is the historical combination of a typical Afghan Khyber knife and a typical Persian "acid etching"? My personal opinion is that such a combination could not exist in the 19th century. But! Even if you start to fantasize and decide that some Afghan traveled to Persia and for some reason ordered a completely non-standard jewelry on his Khyber knife, then judging by the crude "acid etching", this was done at the very end of the 19th century. That is, to call such a Khyber knife - "old khyber" or, especially, "The oldest dated Khyber I can recall" - is completely wrong. I hope now I was able to explain what you did not understand

14th September 2019, 02:19 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	The Khyber blade is unique, and while Persia may have begun exporting trade blades at some point about early to mid 19th c. (see the excellent article "On the Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" Oliver Pinchot, 'Arms Collecting' Vol. 40, #1, Feb. 2002) .......they made typical sabre type blades used often on local hilts. They were not set on producing made to order blades or weapons for trade or as far as I am aware, commissioned or custom made weapons were not a well known Persian activity. Obviously their blades and arms were highly in demand on their own..........but never heard of a Khyber blade in Persia or from Persia. This etching is crudely done, and far from Persian quality, and the very idea of an Afghan tribesman sending a blade or weapon to Persia for etching is on the face of it, patently not likely. The 'date' in the motif here is certainly commemorative or with some other connection, if it is indeed a date. Therefore to presume this is a date establishing a terminus post quem for the 'Khyber knife' form is insufficient. Still this is an intriguing example of a Khyber of the 19th c. which has found its way into an unusual context, reflected by the decorative motif which has been applied to it for whatever reason. Fascinating discussion.

14th September 2019, 03:18 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, We will never know the precise history of this khyber. All we know that it is old and there is a Persian style deep etching on it. Was it a special order from Persia to Afghanistan? Grossly unlikely. Or rare example of Afghani manufacture made by a Persianized Afghani master? Say, Hazara who were and still are Shia and maintain close ties with Iran? That’s more likely. There are 3 million of them in Afghanistan and half a million in Iran. More than enough to have at least several swordsmiths:-) And all over the world ethnic groups in multinational countries that are organized along tribal lines, produce their own types of weapons with their own styles of decoration. We have a physical object with unusual feature: deep etching. But there were other contemporaneous swords with deeply etched texts all over the blade in Afghanistan. I found the original sword in e-bay archives and gave pics to 2 of my Persian colleagues. Will see what they will read. Meanwhile, let’s take a break.