The Mexican gunpowder dilemma

[yulzari]

I do have to qualify my post above in that I am drawing upon the use of saltpetre from Chile and that bat guano was used in US gun powder production.

My post was about the possibility that sodium nitrate was used in Mexican gun powder production. The reports are consistent with that but the source of Mexican saltpetre is unknown to me as is it's chemical composition.

http://www.themeister.co.uk/hindley/..._saltpetre.htm gives a brief overview of saltpetre over history for gun powder. Chilean saltpetre was actually used for gun powder but not good powder and was being converted to normal saltpetre in some quantity late in the 19th century industrially but black powder firearms powder demand dropped drastically with new nitro smokeless powder but remains important for the ignition of artillery shells today. The sporting use is only a small fraction of the military demand these days.

From the Mexican perspective it was the cheapest source of a saltpetre, direct from Chile by ship, compared with buying ready made gun powder from the USA or Europe. I can see it being a possible commercial choice for the core firework and blasting powder production in Mexico. Again I know little of what they actually did in Mexico other than that they did make gun powders in some form or forms.

[fernando]

The earliest references of gunpowder mills in Mexico date from circa 1550, a unit built West from Mexico City, profiting from the canal running from Chaputelpe to supply water to the city. Soon after the Real Fábrica de Pólvora de Nueva Espana was expanded, adding three new mills and a lustration engine. This factory exploded in 1784. In 1780 another factory was built near Santa Fé, three leagues from the capital, which pestle engines were powered by hydraulic wheels. Eighty mestizos were employed to move the granizators.
If i were a person well within the gunpowder science, i would not discard the historic evidence of the 'several' manners of how saltpeter may obtained.
In the extreme, the Portuguese Castle of Moura had its medieval taipa (a mud/lime/stone mix) wall panes destroyed (1809/1826) for the digging of raw material to produce saltpeter.
Much prior to this were the needs during discoveries, where demands of powder were highly demanded, where saltpeter sailed from India played by far the largest role.
Whether dampness was a key factor in the Mexican gunpowder mediocrity by the presently discussed period, one might ask; how is it consistent that such setback did not sporadically affected a determined number of kegs and kept being viral in continuity?
Perhaps a more consistent explanation is the lack of skill of their gunpowder makers. Although the basics were no secret, making it good or bad depends more in the criteria put up to prepare it. To what i have recently read, you may have the best ingredients (and reasonable machinery) at hand but, if you don't follow highly methodical rules you achieve as good as powder for carnival crackers. There is no decent powder mill without a competent gunpowder master. We also had quality setbacks over here by the same period; but the government did not relax until good stuff was again well manufactured ... leaders were sacked in 1832 and again later, systems were double inspected and in 1833 it was concluded that powders tested were not inferior to those from France and Switzerland...
One thing never discussed here is the other two (three when also counting with the air) gunpowder components; saltpeter is the star but, one can not make omelets without eggs. There is a lot to consider about sulphur ... and (coal) wood, the 'poor/rich' parent, which the practicals sustain that the ideal type (and harvest) is (also) responsible for a good powder. Maybe the Mexicans of this period did not pay much attention to such part. My ignorant perspective is that these discussed issues did not only reside in a period encompassing such episodes but since actual Mexican gunpowder factories probably ceased to exist (Santa Fé ?) and were replaced by artisanal resources. Hitchhiking Yulzari's wise considerations, where did they have the means to measure the true output what they were doing ?

All in all ...
Anyone can make chicken curry; but i wouldn’t swap the one made by wife for any of those bought in take out spots .

.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, perfectly written and well illustrated as always and I always enjoy your analogies!! good points on the 'omelette' making as in gun powder making and right, the other two components were quite necessary as well.

On the dampness issue, I thought to look into how in the world powder was dealt with in the days of 'fighting sail'. Obviously at sea, there was a 'bit' of dampness around
Apparently there were individuals assigned to keep powder viable. One source says the men in these areas wore special footwear and there were curtains kept moist to avoid sparks. Surprisingly it is noted the magazine was usually below water line, so further puzzling how it could be kept dry.
In any case, the keepers of the powder apparently were charged with sifting it and remixing it for distribution to the 'powder monkey's (young boys carrying it to gunners).

Perhaps failure to properly sift and remix powder supplies were key in the poor quality of the Mexican powder?
If the Dupont powder was so great, would it not be susceptible to moisture damage?

Yulzari thank you again for these further insights, and the note that Chile was a source for the saltpeter used in Mexico. It was cheap and there was of course notable volume of its production. The constant maritime activity from there seems well understood so inclusion of the saltpeter would be expected.

I admit I am still unclear on the differences in saltpeter, between sodium and potassium nitrates. It seems that both of these compounds are derived from bat guano. The only notable difference seems to be that the 'potassium' version is less 'hygroscopic' (susceptible to moisture effects) if I have understood correctly.

Returning to the Alamo for a moment, in a touch of irony, one defender was killed as he ran toward the powder magazine with a torch. The miserably inadequate powder he hoped would take out as many attacking Mexicans as possible.

On the US powder production, it does appear that guano was indeed used broadly for saltpeter up to and including the Civil War, however I have wondered if the Dupont powder of such noted high quality was in fact using the 'French' process. The Confederate forces had many mills and all seem to have used either guano or other means of saltpeter production. There is some mention of use of urine, but unclear how much used that instead of guano etc.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I admit I am still unclear on the differences in saltpeter, between sodium and potassium nitrates. It seems that both of these compounds are derived from bat guano. The only notable difference seems to be that the 'potassium' version is less 'hygroscopic' (susceptible to moisture effects) if I have understood correctly...

Hopefuly Yulzari doesn't find all this a senseless bunch of words ...

Saltpetre refers to the combinations which form the multi-base nitrogenous acid, in particular the potassium and sodium hydroxides. More narrowly, the name saltpeter refers to potassium nitrate (KN03), and is reserved for sodium or saltpeter nitrate from Chile or Peru. Saltpeter was first cited by Geber in the 8th century, who called it salt petrae and the alchemists used the designation salt niter. This salt results from the decomposition of plant and animal organic matter and may, under favorable conditions, form efflorescences in certain soils, which should have attracted human attention in ancient times. Such efflorescences appear, in particular, in geographical areas characterized by abundant deposits of organic matter and where the climate is warm and with a prolonged and regular dry season, during which it is possible for such matter to decompose without being carried by water. the rains. The areas where the largest saltpeter deposits appear are India, Ceylon, Syria, Egypt, the Maghreb, South Africa, Peru, Bolivia, and Brazil, among others.
From the mid-nineteenth century a new method of saltpeter production was imposed: the conversion of nitro, that is, the production of potassium nitrate from sodium nitrate or saltpeter from Chile, imported mainly from that country. and from Peru. In this method, sodium nitrate and potassium chloride are reacted in aqueous solution at 90 ° C: NaN03 + KCI NaCl + KN03

THE NATURAL SALTPETER ...
This would be basically the following. We began by accommodating in casks layers of the earth from which the saltpeter was to extracted, alternated with those of ash, and sometimes with layers of straw added to facilitate the passage of water. A pit is dug into the upper part of this arrangement, where potash (our potassium carbonate) was added, and then water. After a while, the salt-laden water was allowed to flow (through taps or previously sealed holes) and evaporated in boilers. During the evaporation process, the mass of common salt (our sodium chloride) that was formed was removed with a slotted spoon until it had only the liquid. It was continued until complete evaporation, when finally there was the “raw or unclean” saltpeter, which would later be refined.

THE ARTIFICIAL SALTPETER ...
Saltpeter can also be obtained artificially through methods that humans have long mastered, as evidenced by Cristobal Rojas's in 1607. A traditional way of artificially obtaining potassium nitrate is to mix decomposing organic matter, such as nitrogen-rich stable waste, with plant ash (which contains a high percentage of potassium salts) and limestone. he difference would be that artificial saltirs were built by “the hands of men, and nitrate [was] ahi produced at the expense of human industry” 30. Equating the two ways of saltpeter formation, it would only be appropriate to decide on the most appropriate one. Couto, however, considers that the best way to “form” the saltpeter would be in the artificial salitaria, which, according to the author, “is no other thing but a palhaça house, under which certain amounts of land are gathered, that managed in a way are abundantly impregnated with potassium nitrate, or saltpeter. ”Couto goes on to explain how to build the salad boxes, in a wealth of detail that would make this article very extensive if we wanted to reproduce them. In any case, tanks should be built where the “salitifiable” materials should be deposited, which, properly treated, after a certain period would give the precious salt. But before moving on to the “recipe” itself, Couto says it is important for the “salitreiro” to know that: “potassium nitrate, this salt whose production and harvest is the object of its readings, is made up of three principles, oxygeneo, nitrogen, and potash: the combination of the first two constitutes nitric acid, and this later with potash said nitrate or saltpeter. Nitrogen could be obtained, as we have long known, from materials of animal and plant origin in which it could be found in large quantities. That is: “Generally all the lands called dung, […] the dark lands that are taken from the dark places, as under the houses, and above all there are livestock, wineries, horsemen […] are also good the dark lands underneath the treetops, […] the lands of the cemeteries, the farms, especially the sheep, the hens, doves, the corn fields, […] the mud of the villages, latrines, ponds, and alagoas…

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Returning to the Alamo for a moment, in a touch of irony, one defender was killed as he ran toward the powder magazine with a torch. The miserably inadequate powder he hoped would take out as many attacking Mexicans as possible.

Do you believe in such story Jim ? In which of the versions ventilated; entering the magazine with a torch in hand, deliberately committed for suicide or, light a lengthy fuse that would reach the powder kegs ... or only a history spice, like so many .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... There is some mention of use of urine ...

Preferably that of drunkards, they say !

[yulzari]

Originally Posted by fernando

Do you believe in such story Jim ? In which of the versions ventilated; entering the magazine with a torch in hand, deliberately committed for suicide or, light a lengthy fuse that would reach the powder kegs ... or only a history spice, like so many

The famous Times reporter William Russell mentions visiting a Union battery in the ACW and observing a sergeant upbraiding a private for going to go into the magazine with a lit pipe in his mouth. There is no limit to human foolishness and nothing is completely soldier proof.........

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Do you believe in such story Jim ? In which of the versions ventilated; entering the magazine with a torch in hand, deliberately committed for suicide or, light a lengthy fuse that would reach the powder kegs ... or only a history spice, like so many .


Preferably that of drunkards, they say !

Actually it is a documented event which apparently did take place. While the commonly held beliefs of the Alamo myths believe there were no survivors, there actually were, including Susanna Dickinson, wife of one of the gunnery crew. The well researched book, "Exodus from the Alamo" by Philip Thomas Tucker, also at last carefully uses many accounts from the Mexican records.

The last desperate act of Maj. Robert Evans in the chaos that engulfed the Alamo in those early morning hours Mar. 6, 1836 was to try to take out the remaining reserves of powder. Obviously in a reasonable situation he would have certainly used the sensible method of igniting a trail of powder to the bulk. After all he was in charge of the care and maintenance of the artillery there. However, they were completely overrun, and the Mexican forces were wantonly killing every Texian in sight. In this darkened madness, realizing all was lost, such a suicidal act was not at all unseemly.

As always, with Hollywood, these kinds of events are often seized upon and embellished, and the 1960 John Wayne movie "The Alamo" was no exception.
In the final scenes John Wayne, as Davy Crockett, mortally wounded dashes toward the powder magazine with torch and carries out the defiant act.
This, along with virtually most of the rest of the movie, had nothing to do with the true events at the Alamo, however this act, though clearly distorted, was 'based' on a factual event.

Maj. Evans was apparently from Ireland, then New York, and finally New Orleans, so likely was one of the famed New Orleans Greys who were key to the military members of the defense. He was apparently a most zealous officer, and an outstanding leader, and this action actually seems quite in character for him given the circumstances they had reached.

The irony of course, was that these stores of powder, otherwise mostly useless in conventional use, were in that moment seen as a possible solution for desperate and defiant final response to the Mexican attack, and by the officer charged in its use.

This action also recalls another similar situation historically with the pirate Blackbeard in his end in 1718. On his ship, the 'Adventure', as he was attacked by Lt. Maynard's forces, he ordered one of his men, a black slave (?) named Caesar to stand near the powder magazine. If they were overtaken, his orders were to 'explode the powder', in apparently much the manner of the Alamo event being discussed. He was however captured and did not carry out the order.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...On the dampness issue, I thought to look into how in the world powder was dealt with in the days of 'fighting sail'. Obviously at sea, there was a 'bit' of dampness around

Ah, that would be another deal, worthy of a couple shots of Drambuie .
For your consolation, i will gift you with a couple rustic Chinese pots for the hanging storage of Portuguese artillery gunpowder, to prevent from dampness and watering.

... And by the way; powder must not be too humid ... neither too dry: i will tell you one day why .


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah, that would be another deal, worthy of a couple shots of Drambuie .
For your consolation, i will gift you with a couple rustic Chinese pots for the hanging storage of Portuguese artillery gunpowder, to prevent from dampness and watering.

... And by the way; powder must not be too humid ... neither too dry: i will tell you one day why .


.

"...trust in God, my boys, and keep your powder dry"
- Oliver Cromwell, Edgehill, 1642

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

"...trust in God, my boys, and keep your powder dry"
- Oliver Cromwell, Edgehill, 1642

Isn't that a metaphor that someone decided to put in Cromwell's mouth almost two centuries later than the battle of Edgehill took place ? .

Causes of gunpowder spoilage...
Joseph Fernandes Pinto Alpoim (1700-1765) warns the reader about two gunpowder enemies, excess moisture and its opposite, extreme dryness. In the first case, if the gunpowder is stored in a humid place, the charcoal absorbs moisture and the saltpeter dissolves, causing the unit to break with sulfur, which gives rise to what he calls a viscous tartar. On the other hand, if the gunpowder is stored for a long time in a very dry place or outdoors, the charcoal will detach from the composition, separating as a fine powder, making the gunpowder less active. He exemplifies how this phenomenon can be verified, which consists of taking gunpowder samples from the top and bottom of a barrel: the first one "weighs less than the bottom", that is, has lower density.

[kronckew]

Modern (ie. Dupont) black powder granules are tumbled in fine graphite powder for 12 hrs. after granulation to coat them, this not only provides protection against electrostatic friction sparking but aids in prevention of absorbing water (or excessive drying). Not sure when they started doing this.

Brooklyn Navy Yard saw a number of catastrophic fires in the 20th C. from refuelling with oil, the rushing oil set up a static charge between the hose nozzle and the ship which would spark and ignite the fuel oil in the mostly empty oxygen filled tanks when it reached the appropriate air/fuel ratio and kaboom. they learned to ground strap the nozzle to the ship. Moving dry powders can have the same effect and gunpowder of course is not your friend when it happens. When I was stationed in New Orleans, I remember someone pointing out a bare area next to the Mississippi in the docks area, appears they once were the site of a trio of flour silos. Until one particularly dry day, a cloud of dry flour dust and air managed to spark itself and another Kaboom blew the rest of the flour into the equation and - no more silos. and a few less workers. In an odd twist, they found that a CO2 fire extinguisher being discharged can also cause an electrostatic spark that can set off an explosive air/fuel mixture. (they tried blanketing fuel tanks with a layer of CO2 - bad idea - more kabooms)