Very unusual old keris , any ideas ?

kai · 20th August 2019, 05:34 PM

Hello Alan,

No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th August 2019, 06:18 PM

The purchase and sale of antique marine ivory (for scrimshaw) is still legal in Massachusetts where I live.
I've seen my fair share of examples close up and that really looks like marine ivory to me.

Possibly Dugong.

kai · 20th August 2019, 09:44 PM

Hello Rick,

I would not want to exclude tooth/ivory for the pommel; however the craftsmanship is unusual, especially the rather rough finish.

From the dimensions, this is unlikely to be dugong; spermwhale is much more common in these waters/cultures (as is use of elephant sources).

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th August 2019, 09:58 PM

As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong.
So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory.
As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2019, 10:18 PM

You're probably right Kai, but I've only ever seen lines like that in horn. Sheep horn is very translucent, ordinary cows horn varies, as does kerbau horn.

In fact, as Rick has said, it looks like marine ivory, but I've handled a lot of marine ivory and never seen those "layer lines".

Ian · 20th August 2019, 11:47 PM

I think Rick is correct. Marine ivory of some sort--walrus, whale, dugong, hippo, ... The "layered" appearance is very marked on hippo ivory and might fit the appearance here. As others have already noted, not a high degree of craftsmanship in the carving, so probably not derived from an exotic/rare/precious source.

Ian

Rick · 21st August 2019, 12:55 AM

I think I see a core showing on the underside of the beak.
Need a better picture or better photoshop skills than mine.

Beside it is a picture of the core in the pommel of the avatar Kris that some of you use here.

Jean · 21st August 2019, 09:09 AM

Please see this hilt made from marine ivory and which has many "layer lines".

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2019, 09:23 AM

Yes Jean, it sure does. I wonder why?

I've got a lot of marine ivory, not just hilts, but also carvings from netsuke size to ones as big as a very large whales tooth, I've also got some scrimshaw, and an unknown number of whales teeth that are still natural. I've not seen that layering effect on anything that I have. I wonder what causes it?

20th August 2019, 06:18 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	Two Cents The purchase and sale of antique marine ivory (for scrimshaw) is still legal in Massachusetts where I live. I've seen my fair share of examples close up and that really looks like marine ivory to me. Possibly Dugong. Attached Images

21st August 2019, 12:55 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	I think I see a core showing on the underside of the beak. Need a better picture or better photoshop skills than mine. Beside it is a picture of the core in the pommel of the avatar Kris that some of you use here. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 21st August 2019 at 01:17 AM.

21st August 2019, 09:09 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Please see this hilt made from marine ivory and which has many "layer lines". Attached Images

20th August 2019, 05:34 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone... Regards, Kai

20th August 2019, 09:44 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Rick, I would not want to exclude tooth/ivory for the pommel; however the craftsmanship is unusual, especially the rather rough finish. From the dimensions, this is unlikely to be dugong; spermwhale is much more common in these waters/cultures (as is use of elephant sources). Regards, Kai

20th August 2019, 09:58 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	As I said in my last post 'possibly' dugong. So if it is not dugong I still believe it to be marine ivory. As far as craftsmanship, well I guess that depends on the individual 'Craftsman' and this particular maker barely qualifies as one.

20th August 2019, 10:18 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	You're probably right Kai, but I've only ever seen lines like that in horn. Sheep horn is very translucent, ordinary cows horn varies, as does kerbau horn. In fact, as Rick has said, it looks like marine ivory, but I've handled a lot of marine ivory and never seen those "layer lines".

20th August 2019, 11:47 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,452	I think Rick is correct. Marine ivory of some sort--walrus, whale, dugong, hippo, ... The "layered" appearance is very marked on hippo ivory and might fit the appearance here. As others have already noted, not a high degree of craftsmanship in the carving, so probably not derived from an exotic/rare/precious source. Ian

21st August 2019, 09:23 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Yes Jean, it sure does. I wonder why? I've got a lot of marine ivory, not just hilts, but also carvings from netsuke size to ones as big as a very large whales tooth, I've also got some scrimshaw, and an unknown number of whales teeth that are still natural. I've not seen that layering effect on anything that I have. I wonder what causes it?