Very unusual old keris , any ideas ?

chiefheadknocker · 17th August 2019, 06:14 PM

Hi yes that was my thought a moro hilt on a indonesian blade , but when you see the hilt its very small and surely would be too small for a moro kris , im stumped

David · 17th August 2019, 08:50 PM

Well, it is most certainly a Moro hilt on an Indonesian blade. I can't say that this stumps me. The small size of the hilt is not that unusual. Especially some older Moro kris tended to be smaller and then there is also the possibility that the hilt came from a child's kris. How and when they came together is anybody's guess though.
BTW, i am not convinced that the pommel is bone. Would need to see better photos and/or handle it, but it could be ivory.

chiefheadknocker · 17th August 2019, 10:03 PM

Hi david , im no expert but i guessed it must be a moro hilt though very small, i have added some more pics of the hilt and as you can see the pommel can be removed , im not sure if its ivory or not ?
i have taken a picture of it against what is allready a small moro hilt to give it some perspective

Bob A · 18th August 2019, 12:33 AM

No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.

Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

Battara · 19th August 2019, 04:00 AM

This is definitely a Moro, possibly Sulu, hilt.

Lots of trade between the Indonesian and Philippine archipelagos. I have seen Indonesian kerises owned by Moro datus.

There are many Moro kris hilts and krises that were made for children of datus. Perhaps this hilt is one of them onto a traded keris as a gift.

Jean · 19th August 2019, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.

Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

I am not sure about the hilt materials either from the pics but it is not whale bone, nor buffalo bone (which would be pitted inside), so I tend to believe that it is either marine ivory or tanduk rusa (deer antler). However the piece may be too large for being carved from deer antler.

David · 19th August 2019, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me.

Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

I agree with Jean that this doesn't look quite like bone. Marine ivory is a possibility. The surface is rough and scuffy so it is difficult to clearly see the structure.
I am not aware that all ivory kris pommels were only for ceremonial weapons Bob. Certainly the more elaborate junggayan pommels on datu class kris didn't see much action, but the more simplified ivory kakatau pommels i think may well of graced the hilts of kris that saw more use.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2019, 01:48 PM

Those lines that are present on the sides of this material look a lot like the lines that we see on cow/buffalo/sheep horn. I think we can rule out sheep, but how about white water buffalo (kerbau) horn?

kai · 20th August 2019, 05:34 PM

Hello Alan,

No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone...

Regards,
Kai

17th August 2019, 10:03 PM	#3
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	Hi david , im no expert but i guessed it must be a moro hilt though very small, i have added some more pics of the hilt and as you can see the pommel can be removed , im not sure if its ivory or not ? i have taken a picture of it against what is allready a small moro hilt to give it some perspective Attached Images

17th August 2019, 06:14 PM	#1
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	Hi yes that was my thought a moro hilt on a indonesian blade , but when you see the hilt its very small and surely would be too small for a moro kris , im stumped

17th August 2019, 08:50 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	Well, it is most certainly a Moro hilt on an Indonesian blade. I can't say that this stumps me. The small size of the hilt is not that unusual. Especially some older Moro kris tended to be smaller and then there is also the possibility that the hilt came from a child's kris. How and when they came together is anybody's guess though. BTW, i am not convinced that the pommel is bone. Would need to see better photos and/or handle it, but it could be ivory.

18th August 2019, 12:33 AM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 438	No expertise here either, but it has the look of bone to me. Aside from the appearance of bone, the dagger has a utilitarian look, on which I doubt ivory would be used.

19th August 2019, 04:00 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,304	This is definitely a Moro, possibly Sulu, hilt. Lots of trade between the Indonesian and Philippine archipelagos. I have seen Indonesian kerises owned by Moro datus. There are many Moro kris hilts and krises that were made for children of datus. Perhaps this hilt is one of them onto a traded keris as a gift.

20th August 2019, 01:48 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,043	Those lines that are present on the sides of this material look a lot like the lines that we see on cow/buffalo/sheep horn. I think we can rule out sheep, but how about white water buffalo (kerbau) horn?

20th August 2019, 05:34 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, No, albino water buffalo is yellowish with quite some translucence. While the delamination does resemble horn, the material does look like bone to me. There hardly is any difference to the grip which evidently is bone... Regards, Kai