Doc Holiday's mystery shotgun: October 26, 1881 OK Corral

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 10:01 PM

Richard, David and Wayne, thank you guys!!!!
Great perspective and much appreciated.
As someone who is not a 'shooter' it helps to see the pragmatic side of the aspects of these guns.

Still holding to the idea of the Wells Fargo gun from Virgil to Doc, the material I have been finding reveals mostly;
1. There were no 'standard' Wells Fargo shotguns, nor were they accordingly
marked or stamped. The only instance perhaps possible for such practice
may have been their headquarters areas in California, but no records thus
far that I can find. I'm awaiting the book "Company Property" by James
Bartz (1993) hoping for some info.

2. Another source says local agents bought their own guns from hardware
stores, but then suggests they had store mark guns Wells Fargo?? Why?
It was not as if they were outfitting an army, there were not that many
'messengers' and they only rode with Wells Fargo express boxes, not
on every stage (Well Fargo used private coach lines to convey boxes).

3. There seem to be no official records or inventory reflecting purchase
nor issue of guns for agents or messengers, so thus far no example
with clear provenance to compare to. The only references or examples
address the volume of 'fakes' to the point I have yet to find reference
to an authentic Well Fargo gun of any kind.

Again, I have not found any corroborating record of Holliday ever using or 'favoring' any shotgun, and as far as I know the only reference I have ever seen toward a WW Greener was in "True Grit" with John Wayne. The cut down 10 gauge Meteor would be a beast to hold onto, and certainly was never a coach gun. The notion of a swivel also seems nonsense, and Doc threw the gun down after firing both barrels, so what did he do, take time in a blazing 30 second close range fire fight to unfasten it?

Still searching for more on Wells Fargo gun markings, and as seen in the photo I posted earlier, Wells Fargo used wagons for shipments, and on these the 'messengers' (as many as 4 to 6) had not only coach guns but rifles.

One reference said Wyatt called coach guns 'street howitzers', and it is known he used one in his vengeance ride after the OK Corral. This suggests he may have been as other lawmen who often used these in duties in town, and they were not just used on 'coaches'.

David R · 9th August 2019, 10:56 PM

If you are trying to identify a coaching gun, as opposed to a sawn-off, there are things to look at.
Barrel taper, if it is made as a short barrel gun, then it will have a fast and elegant taper, rather than an abrupt end with an awkward profile and excess metal at the muzzle.
The rib, either as midrib or under-rib will have a finished end rather than being open, which is the dead giveaway of a home made alteration.
It will balance, with the but-stock proportioned to the length and weight of the barrels.
In other words, whatever the calibre and age, think more on the lines of a carbine, rather than a sawn down musket or rifle.
In the Middle East, you can find quite a few mini-pieces made as serious weapons for the saddle boot, sometimes called knee-guns because they were braced on the knee rather than the shoulder. More like a shoulder stocked pistol than a cut down shoulder arm.
There has always been a demand and a use for a handy sub length long arm. They were issuing mini AR15's (?) for vehicle personnel in Vietnam... or so I have been told.
I also remember a shooter (British) bemoaning the change in the law that meant the handy DB gun at 23" barrel length was no longer legal, because it was so good in dense reed and marsh hunting.

David R · 9th August 2019, 10:59 PM

Oh, as for marking guns... If the firm paid for them, it wanted to keep them and not have them "walk"!

And another edit, a Wells Fargo Depot would store valuables. They would need guns to protect such from the scalawags and bandits that abounded in the Old West.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 11:21 PM

Thanks very much David, there is a great deal to understanding the dynamics of these coach guns and shotguns themselves. Getting back to the subject at hand, I am hoping to find more detail on the gun of Holliday, and if indeed Virgil did get it from the Wells Fargo office.
It does make sense that they would mark it Wells Fargo as it would be less likely to be stolen, and as you note, the office itself had to store valuables. With that it would seem the guns would not be likely to 'walk away' as there must have been a guard on duty at all times.

David R · 2nd September 2019, 08:19 PM

I would have posted a photo earlier, but had to wait for this to come back from the Gunsmith. A muzzle loading percussion Coaching Gun in my collection. The barrel checks out as having been made at that length, 18 inches, rather than sawn down from longer. The lock started life as a flintlock, and was than made into a percussion. The bore is at least 12 bore, hard to tell with these old barrels. Lots of wear and repair, but I like it.

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2019, 11:40 PM

David, thank you so much for posting this!
This is a fantastic gun, and all the more so having been converted from flintlock suggesting it early use indeed on coaches. While the Doc Holiday shotgun was of course from a later time in the 'wild west', the early coach guns have amazing history of their own.
Thank you for posting it on its own thread as the old coach guns are a story in themselves from 18th century into 19th with the highwayman tales of England and the Continent. This shotgun type evolved in such use from the blunderbusses it would seem, but that's for the new thread.

2nd September 2019, 08:19 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	I would have posted a photo earlier, but had to wait for this to come back from the Gunsmith. A muzzle loading percussion Coaching Gun in my collection. The barrel checks out as having been made at that length, 18 inches, rather than sawn down from longer. The lock started life as a flintlock, and was than made into a percussion. The bore is at least 12 bore, hard to tell with these old barrels. Lots of wear and repair, but I like it. Attached Images

3rd September 2019, 11:40 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	! David, thank you so much for posting this! This is a fantastic gun, and all the more so having been converted from flintlock suggesting it early use indeed on coaches. While the Doc Holiday shotgun was of course from a later time in the 'wild west', the early coach guns have amazing history of their own. Thank you for posting it on its own thread as the old coach guns are a story in themselves from 18th century into 19th with the highwayman tales of England and the Continent. This shotgun type evolved in such use from the blunderbusses it would seem, but that's for the new thread.

9th August 2019, 10:01 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Richard, David and Wayne, thank you guys!!!! Great perspective and much appreciated. As someone who is not a 'shooter' it helps to see the pragmatic side of the aspects of these guns. Still holding to the idea of the Wells Fargo gun from Virgil to Doc, the material I have been finding reveals mostly; 1. There were no 'standard' Wells Fargo shotguns, nor were they accordingly marked or stamped. The only instance perhaps possible for such practice may have been their headquarters areas in California, but no records thus far that I can find. I'm awaiting the book "Company Property" by James Bartz (1993) hoping for some info. 2. Another source says local agents bought their own guns from hardware stores, but then suggests they had store mark guns Wells Fargo?? Why? It was not as if they were outfitting an army, there were not that many 'messengers' and they only rode with Wells Fargo express boxes, not on every stage (Well Fargo used private coach lines to convey boxes). 3. There seem to be no official records or inventory reflecting purchase nor issue of guns for agents or messengers, so thus far no example with clear provenance to compare to. The only references or examples address the volume of 'fakes' to the point I have yet to find reference to an authentic Well Fargo gun of any kind. Again, I have not found any corroborating record of Holliday ever using or 'favoring' any shotgun, and as far as I know the only reference I have ever seen toward a WW Greener was in "True Grit" with John Wayne. The cut down 10 gauge Meteor would be a beast to hold onto, and certainly was never a coach gun. The notion of a swivel also seems nonsense, and Doc threw the gun down after firing both barrels, so what did he do, take time in a blazing 30 second close range fire fight to unfasten it? Still searching for more on Wells Fargo gun markings, and as seen in the photo I posted earlier, Wells Fargo used wagons for shipments, and on these the 'messengers' (as many as 4 to 6) had not only coach guns but rifles. One reference said Wyatt called coach guns 'street howitzers', and it is known he used one in his vengeance ride after the OK Corral. This suggests he may have been as other lawmen who often used these in duties in town, and they were not just used on 'coaches'.

9th August 2019, 10:56 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	If you are trying to identify a coaching gun, as opposed to a sawn-off, there are things to look at. Barrel taper, if it is made as a short barrel gun, then it will have a fast and elegant taper, rather than an abrupt end with an awkward profile and excess metal at the muzzle. The rib, either as midrib or under-rib will have a finished end rather than being open, which is the dead giveaway of a home made alteration. It will balance, with the but-stock proportioned to the length and weight of the barrels. In other words, whatever the calibre and age, think more on the lines of a carbine, rather than a sawn down musket or rifle. In the Middle East, you can find quite a few mini-pieces made as serious weapons for the saddle boot, sometimes called knee-guns because they were braced on the knee rather than the shoulder. More like a shoulder stocked pistol than a cut down shoulder arm. There has always been a demand and a use for a handy sub length long arm. They were issuing mini AR15's (?) for vehicle personnel in Vietnam... or so I have been told. I also remember a shooter (British) bemoaning the change in the law that meant the handy DB gun at 23" barrel length was no longer legal, because it was so good in dense reed and marsh hunting.

9th August 2019, 10:59 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Oh, as for marking guns... If the firm paid for them, it wanted to keep them and not have them "walk"! And another edit, a Wells Fargo Depot would store valuables. They would need guns to protect such from the scalawags and bandits that abounded in the Old West.

9th August 2019, 11:21 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thanks very much David, there is a great deal to understanding the dynamics of these coach guns and shotguns themselves. Getting back to the subject at hand, I am hoping to find more detail on the gun of Holliday, and if indeed Virgil did get it from the Wells Fargo office. It does make sense that they would mark it Wells Fargo as it would be less likely to be stolen, and as you note, the office itself had to store valuables. With that it would seem the guns would not be likely to 'walk away' as there must have been a guard on duty at all times.