Doc Holiday's mystery shotgun: October 26, 1881 OK Corral

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 01:13 AM

David thank you for the great input!!!! and for heavens sakes DONT worry about 'clogging up' this thread!!! I am grateful for these kinds of details and quite honestly am just learning on all this stuff myself.

I have wondered if Wells Fargo weapons were so marked, and assumed they were but obviously there would be a huge market for fakery. I have still not found any examples marked and with provenance, so the notes you recall on the one you saw are most interesting.

From what I found on these coach guns, since they were now breech loading cartridge guns, with my limited knowledge I would assume they were center fire. I had seen the reference on Doc having a sawn off gun with swivel etc. and while interesting...…...considering that Doc had no particular fondness for shotguns, as well as the fact that he was handed the shotgun by Virgil ...who had grabbed it out of the Well Fargo office.....that is most unlikely.

Much of this is standard 'witness syndrome' in which witnesses seem to have a wide spectrum of details either inaccurately recalled; mistaken, made up or assumed. With this investigators rely on cross comparison of separate accounts, and presume the most aligned details corroborated to be accurate.

The 'shotgun messengers' had no reason to conceal their shotguns, so Well Fargo would not have had such 'rigs' for their messengers as the sawn off and swivel set ups.

While Rockwell was the 'Mormon Avenger' I think the gun he used (also called that) was actually a Colt with the barrel cut way down. I never found anything on a cut down shotgun, but with his penchant for 'alteration' would not be surprised.

Thanks very much David!

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 05:51 AM

In more research into the shotgun used by Holliday, it seems there are far more notions and contrary accounts than anticipated. Even in the Rosa book, "The Age of the Gunfighter" it is claimed that Holliday's FAVORITE shotgun was a WW Greener from Birmingham, England.....but that more recent claims say he had a cut down 10 gauge 'meteor' shotgun (Belgian) and called it his street howitzer.

Looking more into the idea of Wells Fargo shotguns, it seems that while San Francisco was the headquarters, local agents in various places would acquire their own guns. I read through many accounts of 'authentic' and marked Wells Fargo shotguns, and all are expectedly faked.
One source says that few guns were ever marked, and if each local agent bought his own gun, why would there be 'Wells Fargo' property notices on them?
Also, it is noted that 'messengers' were also known to carry rifles, and that the short barrel was not necessarily the norm on the shotguns.

So most of my previous thoughts seem well rescinded for the most part at this point.
How sure are we that Virgil actually furnished Doc's shotgun? If not, then the idea of a cut down 10 gauge Meteor or whatever seems possible after all.

We do know that Doc did hit Tom McLaury fatally, but it seems it was his 2nd barrel. The first barrel was at Ike Clanton who had made his run for it.
It was then he threw the shotgun down (so it does not seem to have been on the swivel rig suggested). Also, it is noted that Frank McLaury fired at Doc and hit Doc's holster...….suggesting he was indeed wearing one.
Other accounts claim he had a Colt Lightning in his pocket.

So as always, with OK Corral 'versions', which is it?

Actually there is not even agreement on whether Wyatt actually had a Smith & Wesson #3, as the Gilcrease one said to be Wyatt's has been discredited. However, apparently in Juneau Alaska, a Smith & Wesson belonging to Wyatt was checked in and left (June, 1900).

The mystery (s) continue.

Pukka Bundook · 9th August 2019, 03:00 PM

Jim,

You have set yourself quite a challenge here..................sorting fact from years of fiction!
I can add nothing as to what Doc used in the way of a shotgun, and we do know that every inventive soul out there have added their ideas to the list.

All I can say is that from a practical point of view, Wells Fargo guns would Probably be double barreled hammer guns, of (as you stated ) 10 or 12 bore , with 12 getting the nod, and barrels not too short, so say 24" as a guard may have to engage a target at a longer range, say within 40 to 50 yards at times.
As for the buttstock, it would be much more serviceable with a proper (full)length , than one cut down and not allowing it to be used from the shoulder.

If it were me "back then" this is the type of shotgun I would be looking for, and no fancy gimmicks. :-) (except I'd go for barrels a tad longer, say 26")

As for markings, I would imagine Wells Fargo arms to be stamped or branded on the stock, in other words marked cheaply and easily, for aid in recovery if 'nicked".
So, Nothing concrete here, just what I Think may have been the case!!

All the best Jim and all,

Richard.

David R · 9th August 2019, 03:50 PM

Regarding barrel lengths, the Wells Fargo gun I handled 40 odd years ago had 18 inch barrels, which is the average for coach guns. I have a SB muzzle loader of such, and the barrel is that length as well. They are not for long range use, but made to be quick to get into action, aim, and deliver a wide spread to make up for the lack of time to aim.
Back in the day, I was an avid collector of American gun books and magazines, and they often had contemporary photo's of, and articles about, gunfights and Posse's. In those circumstances the standard DB full length 12 bore looms large in the hands of the protagonists, especially local men deputised for the occasion . They all had one, they were all used to using one, and did not expect to be surprised by the perp' they were chasing. It looks very much like if a shoot out was expected, it was the weapon of choice even for a sheriff or marshal.
Two different scenarios, two different demands on the weapon.

kronckew · 9th August 2019, 08:20 PM

back in the States I had a Two-hole hammered shootsgun in 20ga. short barrels, choked full and modified, was good for small game in the brush and woods, birds, not so much tho. Was a favourite. A 12ga ex police riot gun, short barrelled pump with an extended magazine tube & web sling lived under my bed. Justincase. No choke at all. Not terribly good for ducks...unless you were standing on them.

David R · 9th August 2019, 08:37 PM

The load makes a big difference as well, buckshot rather than bird.... Or even Buck and Ball!
Something I think worth pointing out, short barrels are not just for, and often nothing to do with, concealment. It's more to do with handling in confined spaces, as in indoors, in a trench or on a coach drivers position. Getting a wide spread of shot, like a blunderbuss. Speed of bringing it to bear. Ease of carry. The WWI US military shotgun, did not need to be hidden.

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2019, 10:01 PM

Richard, David and Wayne, thank you guys!!!!
Great perspective and much appreciated.
As someone who is not a 'shooter' it helps to see the pragmatic side of the aspects of these guns.

Still holding to the idea of the Wells Fargo gun from Virgil to Doc, the material I have been finding reveals mostly;
1. There were no 'standard' Wells Fargo shotguns, nor were they accordingly
marked or stamped. The only instance perhaps possible for such practice
may have been their headquarters areas in California, but no records thus
far that I can find. I'm awaiting the book "Company Property" by James
Bartz (1993) hoping for some info.

2. Another source says local agents bought their own guns from hardware
stores, but then suggests they had store mark guns Wells Fargo?? Why?
It was not as if they were outfitting an army, there were not that many
'messengers' and they only rode with Wells Fargo express boxes, not
on every stage (Well Fargo used private coach lines to convey boxes).

3. There seem to be no official records or inventory reflecting purchase
nor issue of guns for agents or messengers, so thus far no example
with clear provenance to compare to. The only references or examples
address the volume of 'fakes' to the point I have yet to find reference
to an authentic Well Fargo gun of any kind.

Again, I have not found any corroborating record of Holliday ever using or 'favoring' any shotgun, and as far as I know the only reference I have ever seen toward a WW Greener was in "True Grit" with John Wayne. The cut down 10 gauge Meteor would be a beast to hold onto, and certainly was never a coach gun. The notion of a swivel also seems nonsense, and Doc threw the gun down after firing both barrels, so what did he do, take time in a blazing 30 second close range fire fight to unfasten it?

Still searching for more on Wells Fargo gun markings, and as seen in the photo I posted earlier, Wells Fargo used wagons for shipments, and on these the 'messengers' (as many as 4 to 6) had not only coach guns but rifles.

One reference said Wyatt called coach guns 'street howitzers', and it is known he used one in his vengeance ride after the OK Corral. This suggests he may have been as other lawmen who often used these in duties in town, and they were not just used on 'coaches'.

9th August 2019, 08:37 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,123	The load makes a big difference as well, buckshot rather than bird.... Or even Buck and Ball! Something I think worth pointing out, short barrels are not just for, and often nothing to do with, concealment. It's more to do with handling in confined spaces, as in indoors, in a trench or on a coach drivers position. Getting a wide spread of shot, like a blunderbuss. Speed of bringing it to bear. Ease of carry. The WWI US military shotgun, did not need to be hidden. Attached Images Last edited by David R; 9th August 2019 at 08:52 PM.

9th August 2019, 01:13 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	David thank you for the great input!!!! and for heavens sakes DONT worry about 'clogging up' this thread!!! I am grateful for these kinds of details and quite honestly am just learning on all this stuff myself. I have wondered if Wells Fargo weapons were so marked, and assumed they were but obviously there would be a huge market for fakery. I have still not found any examples marked and with provenance, so the notes you recall on the one you saw are most interesting. From what I found on these coach guns, since they were now breech loading cartridge guns, with my limited knowledge I would assume they were center fire. I had seen the reference on Doc having a sawn off gun with swivel etc. and while interesting...…...considering that Doc had no particular fondness for shotguns, as well as the fact that he was handed the shotgun by Virgil ...who had grabbed it out of the Well Fargo office.....that is most unlikely. Much of this is standard 'witness syndrome' in which witnesses seem to have a wide spectrum of details either inaccurately recalled; mistaken, made up or assumed. With this investigators rely on cross comparison of separate accounts, and presume the most aligned details corroborated to be accurate. The 'shotgun messengers' had no reason to conceal their shotguns, so Well Fargo would not have had such 'rigs' for their messengers as the sawn off and swivel set ups. While Rockwell was the 'Mormon Avenger' I think the gun he used (also called that) was actually a Colt with the barrel cut way down. I never found anything on a cut down shotgun, but with his penchant for 'alteration' would not be surprised. Thanks very much David!

9th August 2019, 05:51 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	In more research into the shotgun used by Holliday, it seems there are far more notions and contrary accounts than anticipated. Even in the Rosa book, "The Age of the Gunfighter" it is claimed that Holliday's FAVORITE shotgun was a WW Greener from Birmingham, England.....but that more recent claims say he had a cut down 10 gauge 'meteor' shotgun (Belgian) and called it his street howitzer. Looking more into the idea of Wells Fargo shotguns, it seems that while San Francisco was the headquarters, local agents in various places would acquire their own guns. I read through many accounts of 'authentic' and marked Wells Fargo shotguns, and all are expectedly faked. One source says that few guns were ever marked, and if each local agent bought his own gun, why would there be 'Wells Fargo' property notices on them? Also, it is noted that 'messengers' were also known to carry rifles, and that the short barrel was not necessarily the norm on the shotguns. So most of my previous thoughts seem well rescinded for the most part at this point. How sure are we that Virgil actually furnished Doc's shotgun? If not, then the idea of a cut down 10 gauge Meteor or whatever seems possible after all. We do know that Doc did hit Tom McLaury fatally, but it seems it was his 2nd barrel. The first barrel was at Ike Clanton who had made his run for it. It was then he threw the shotgun down (so it does not seem to have been on the swivel rig suggested). Also, it is noted that Frank McLaury fired at Doc and hit Doc's holster...….suggesting he was indeed wearing one. Other accounts claim he had a Colt Lightning in his pocket. So as always, with OK Corral 'versions', which is it? Actually there is not even agreement on whether Wyatt actually had a Smith & Wesson #3, as the Gilcrease one said to be Wyatt's has been discredited. However, apparently in Juneau Alaska, a Smith & Wesson belonging to Wyatt was checked in and left (June, 1900). The mystery (s) continue.

9th August 2019, 03:00 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, You have set yourself quite a challenge here..................sorting fact from years of fiction! I can add nothing as to what Doc used in the way of a shotgun, and we do know that every inventive soul out there have added their ideas to the list. All I can say is that from a practical point of view, Wells Fargo guns would Probably be double barreled hammer guns, of (as you stated ) 10 or 12 bore , with 12 getting the nod, and barrels not too short, so say 24" as a guard may have to engage a target at a longer range, say within 40 to 50 yards at times. As for the buttstock, it would be much more serviceable with a proper (full)length , than one cut down and not allowing it to be used from the shoulder. If it were me "back then" this is the type of shotgun I would be looking for, and no fancy gimmicks. :-) (except I'd go for barrels a tad longer, say 26") As for markings, I would imagine Wells Fargo arms to be stamped or branded on the stock, in other words marked cheaply and easily, for aid in recovery if 'nicked". So, Nothing concrete here, just what I Think may have been the case!! All the best Jim and all, Richard.

9th August 2019, 03:50 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,123	Regarding barrel lengths, the Wells Fargo gun I handled 40 odd years ago had 18 inch barrels, which is the average for coach guns. I have a SB muzzle loader of such, and the barrel is that length as well. They are not for long range use, but made to be quick to get into action, aim, and deliver a wide spread to make up for the lack of time to aim. Back in the day, I was an avid collector of American gun books and magazines, and they often had contemporary photo's of, and articles about, gunfights and Posse's. In those circumstances the standard DB full length 12 bore looms large in the hands of the protagonists, especially local men deputised for the occasion . They all had one, they were all used to using one, and did not expect to be surprised by the perp' they were chasing. It looks very much like if a shoot out was expected, it was the weapon of choice even for a sheriff or marshal. Two different scenarios, two different demands on the weapon.

9th August 2019, 08:20 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	back in the States I had a Two-hole hammered shootsgun in 20ga. short barrels, choked full and modified, was good for small game in the brush and woods, birds, not so much tho. Was a favourite. A 12ga ex police riot gun, short barrelled pump with an extended magazine tube & web sling lived under my bed. Justincase. No choke at all. Not terribly good for ducks...unless you were standing on them.

9th August 2019, 10:01 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Richard, David and Wayne, thank you guys!!!! Great perspective and much appreciated. As someone who is not a 'shooter' it helps to see the pragmatic side of the aspects of these guns. Still holding to the idea of the Wells Fargo gun from Virgil to Doc, the material I have been finding reveals mostly; 1. There were no 'standard' Wells Fargo shotguns, nor were they accordingly marked or stamped. The only instance perhaps possible for such practice may have been their headquarters areas in California, but no records thus far that I can find. I'm awaiting the book "Company Property" by James Bartz (1993) hoping for some info. 2. Another source says local agents bought their own guns from hardware stores, but then suggests they had store mark guns Wells Fargo?? Why? It was not as if they were outfitting an army, there were not that many 'messengers' and they only rode with Wells Fargo express boxes, not on every stage (Well Fargo used private coach lines to convey boxes). 3. There seem to be no official records or inventory reflecting purchase nor issue of guns for agents or messengers, so thus far no example with clear provenance to compare to. The only references or examples address the volume of 'fakes' to the point I have yet to find reference to an authentic Well Fargo gun of any kind. Again, I have not found any corroborating record of Holliday ever using or 'favoring' any shotgun, and as far as I know the only reference I have ever seen toward a WW Greener was in "True Grit" with John Wayne. The cut down 10 gauge Meteor would be a beast to hold onto, and certainly was never a coach gun. The notion of a swivel also seems nonsense, and Doc threw the gun down after firing both barrels, so what did he do, take time in a blazing 30 second close range fire fight to unfasten it? Still searching for more on Wells Fargo gun markings, and as seen in the photo I posted earlier, Wells Fargo used wagons for shipments, and on these the 'messengers' (as many as 4 to 6) had not only coach guns but rifles. One reference said Wyatt called coach guns 'street howitzers', and it is known he used one in his vengeance ride after the OK Corral. This suggests he may have been as other lawmen who often used these in duties in town, and they were not just used on 'coaches'.