Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2019, 09:29 PM

Im totally with you Hombre!!!! (PS I loved that movie with Paul Newman, "Hombre"). As I grew up mostly in the Southwest including Utah and Colorado, I have always had a deep interest in the history. While I have studied historic edged weapons for over 50 years, as we travel through these areas in the 'bookmobile' (on the road in RV for over 12 yrs) it is impossible not to be totally caught up in it.

In Albuquerque, N.M. I had the good fortune to finally find a good Winchester SRC (=saddle ring carbine). This was a worn, well used piece that has lived its rugged life here in New Mexico.
It is the 1873 (3rd model) just as Billy's, and is in .44-.40, exactly as preferred on the range as the ammo as the same as in the Colt 'peacemakers'. While far from any expert on this, I suspect this is one of the earlier ones as it still has the dovetail sight, the ladder sight was added more around 1880.

It has been 'worked' and the magazine has been shortened, the butt has been replaced (there is damage to the butt), its patina black, and the rawhide added for grip?

I wanted to add it here as we have been talking on Billy's guns, and seemed appropriate to add a genuine working gun of New Mexico of the time. In this condition scorned by collectors, I am a historian, and this carbine is steeped in history!

As you are a collector of these guns Hombre, I look forward to your insights.

fernando · 8th August 2019, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

..., I suspect this is one of the earlier ones as it still has the dovetail sight, the ladder sight was added more around 1880...

,

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2019, 08:19 PM

Fernando, thank you for these serial numbers!
I suspect if any are still visible they are under the rawhide, but don't wish to dismantle. This thing is incredibly worn.

Hombre · 13th August 2019, 11:10 AM

Sorry for not being here for a while... I have been feeling so/so....
Anyway, I like your carbine, Jim!
Do you mind if I use your picture of it... I want to discuss it with a friend.... Of course, I will tell you what our conclusions will be for whatever it is worth... By the way, here is one of my carbines, mfg 1888 and and was shipped a couple of days later march 31st , a little bit late but it has history so....

Best,
Stefan

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2019, 05:10 PM

Hey Hombre!!! I'm glad you're back! I was afraid the discussion here had run its course, but my fascination with the west surges ahead. We are out of Albuquerque now in Arizona with an appropriately named park , "Dead Horse Ranch" just north of Prescott. We have been here many times and we enjoy going to an old mining town we can see from here on the side of a mountain (actually these are rugged foot hills).
Going through wester history of the late 19th c. you will see many of the key figures mentioned being in Prescott at one time or another.

Of course you are welcome to use pics of my carbine, and I am pleased to share it as I have here. The dealer I got it from is well known and quite up front in his dealings and pointed out the numerous elements which this one had. As may be expected in a gun with a very long working life, numerous alterations have been made such as the cut down magazine. The dark patination is congruent overall so many of these have been done many years ago.

The butt as I understand has a rifle plate rather than the one originally on it, possibly having to do with damage to the stock. The action is well working.
I am suspecting that while this is a 3rd model, the dovetail sight suggests earlier, before the addition of the ladder sight.

Being chambered in .44-.40 is a plus also, as this 'universal' caliber was preferred on the range so interchangeable with the Colt .44-.40, again as I understand. This is quite a learning curve for me, so exciting and fascinating, and I appreciate your notes and recommendations.
The book you recommended is outstanding !!

Last night watched the movie "You know my Name' with Sam Elliott as Bill Tilghman. It was brilliant, and truly showed just how the 'wild west' transcended into the 20th century, here taking place in Oklahoma in the 1920s. It seemed strange with model T's and horses in the same context, but its true to form.

In Texas where we are most of the time, it is still very much the west as it was in the towns (the cities of course are mainstream). I have often mentioned the Texas Rangers (see the movie "Hell or High Water" Jeff Bridges. They are still on patrol (about 171 in the state) and while with modern equipment (radios, computers etc.) they still are on horseback in much of the area with cattle herding and activity on the ranges.

With the slow and subtle transition from the wild west into the next century (and still of course), it is easy to see this carbine, just as many others, saw such a long working life, in its case in New Mexico, just one state away.

Thank you for showing your carbine here, BEAUTIFUL example!!! These are fantastic rifles overall throughout the spectrum, and truly deserving of their name (along with the Peacemaker), 'the guns that won the west'.

yxrancher · 17th July 2021, 10:09 PM

Jim,
I’m sure you would be interested to know that the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy is coming up for auction. This gun was purchased directly from the Garrett family.
Jv

CSinTX · 18th July 2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yxrancher

Jim,
I’m sure you would be interested to know that the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy is coming up for auction. This gun was purchased directly from the Garrett family.
Jv

I see you're a new member. With the name, I assume also from Texas? There's some additional discussion here- https://texags.com/forums/34/topics/3209290

7th August 2019, 09:29 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	The M1873 Winchester saddle ring carbine Im totally with you Hombre!!!! (PS I loved that movie with Paul Newman, "Hombre"). As I grew up mostly in the Southwest including Utah and Colorado, I have always had a deep interest in the history. While I have studied historic edged weapons for over 50 years, as we travel through these areas in the 'bookmobile' (on the road in RV for over 12 yrs) it is impossible not to be totally caught up in it. In Albuquerque, N.M. I had the good fortune to finally find a good Winchester SRC (=saddle ring carbine). This was a worn, well used piece that has lived its rugged life here in New Mexico. It is the 1873 (3rd model) just as Billy's, and is in .44-.40, exactly as preferred on the range as the ammo as the same as in the Colt 'peacemakers'. While far from any expert on this, I suspect this is one of the earlier ones as it still has the dovetail sight, the ladder sight was added more around 1880. It has been 'worked' and the magazine has been shortened, the butt has been replaced (there is damage to the butt), its patina black, and the rawhide added for grip? I wanted to add it here as we have been talking on Billy's guns, and seemed appropriate to add a genuine working gun of New Mexico of the time. In this condition scorned by collectors, I am a historian, and this carbine is steeped in history! As you are a collector of these guns Hombre, I look forward to your insights. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th August 2019 at 03:13 AM.

13th August 2019, 11:10 AM	#4
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Sorry for not being here for a while... I have been feeling so/so.... Anyway, I like your carbine, Jim! Do you mind if I use your picture of it... I want to discuss it with a friend.... Of course, I will tell you what our conclusions will be for whatever it is worth... By the way, here is one of my carbines, mfg 1888 and and was shipped a couple of days later march 31st , a little bit late but it has history so.... Best, Stefan Attached Images

17th July 2021, 10:09 PM	#6
yxrancher Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 1	Pat Garrett Jim, I’m sure you would be interested to know that the gun Pat Garrett used to kill Billy is coming up for auction. This gun was purchased directly from the Garrett family. Jv

8th August 2019, 08:19 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Fernando, thank you for these serial numbers! I suspect if any are still visible they are under the rawhide, but don't wish to dismantle. This thing is incredibly worn.

13th August 2019, 05:10 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hey Hombre!!! I'm glad you're back! I was afraid the discussion here had run its course, but my fascination with the west surges ahead. We are out of Albuquerque now in Arizona with an appropriately named park , "Dead Horse Ranch" just north of Prescott. We have been here many times and we enjoy going to an old mining town we can see from here on the side of a mountain (actually these are rugged foot hills). Going through wester history of the late 19th c. you will see many of the key figures mentioned being in Prescott at one time or another. Of course you are welcome to use pics of my carbine, and I am pleased to share it as I have here. The dealer I got it from is well known and quite up front in his dealings and pointed out the numerous elements which this one had. As may be expected in a gun with a very long working life, numerous alterations have been made such as the cut down magazine. The dark patination is congruent overall so many of these have been done many years ago. The butt as I understand has a rifle plate rather than the one originally on it, possibly having to do with damage to the stock. The action is well working. I am suspecting that while this is a 3rd model, the dovetail sight suggests earlier, before the addition of the ladder sight. Being chambered in .44-.40 is a plus also, as this 'universal' caliber was preferred on the range so interchangeable with the Colt .44-.40, again as I understand. This is quite a learning curve for me, so exciting and fascinating, and I appreciate your notes and recommendations. The book you recommended is outstanding !! Last night watched the movie "You know my Name' with Sam Elliott as Bill Tilghman. It was brilliant, and truly showed just how the 'wild west' transcended into the 20th century, here taking place in Oklahoma in the 1920s. It seemed strange with model T's and horses in the same context, but its true to form. In Texas where we are most of the time, it is still very much the west as it was in the towns (the cities of course are mainstream). I have often mentioned the Texas Rangers (see the movie "Hell or High Water" Jeff Bridges. They are still on patrol (about 171 in the state) and while with modern equipment (radios, computers etc.) they still are on horseback in much of the area with cattle herding and activity on the ranges. With the slow and subtle transition from the wild west into the next century (and still of course), it is easy to see this carbine, just as many others, saw such a long working life, in its case in New Mexico, just one state away. Thank you for showing your carbine here, BEAUTIFUL example!!! These are fantastic rifles overall throughout the spectrum, and truly deserving of their name (along with the Peacemaker), 'the guns that won the west'.