Buying at arm's length

Jean · 4th August 2019, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

in the final analysis i think it boils down to "know what you buy". I've bought quite a few items from auction houses from USA and Europe and I hardly paid any attention to the description which can sometimes be completely wrong.

I agree with Green, and I bought the bulk of my collection "at arm's length" and with time I have learned to carefully select and assess the quality of the items on the basis of clear pictures. Of course I am mistaken from time to time but much less than years ago when I totally lacked experience. One surprising phenomenon these days is that some auction houses sell ivory-hilted krisses as bone or antler for avoiding Cites issues!
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2019, 01:00 PM

In my initial post I mentioned two examples of what I believe could be construed as misrepresentation:-

1) material that is not silver presented as silver

2) material that in no way could be considered to be gems presented as gems.

this is the point I am trying to drive home.

I did not mention incorrect descriptions of type or style, I did not mention opinions. I mentioned material of little worth presented as material of worth. In other words misrepresentation.

Of course we need to have an understanding of the items that we may bid on, of course we need to assess quality as best we can from photographs that are very often completely inadequate. All this is a given, and it is not at all what I was writing about.

But how is it possible to know if one is looking at silver or polished mamas or silver plate from a photo, if experienced people need to test the material when they have it in their hands in order to know with certainty what it is?

How is it possible to differentiate between cubic zirconia and diamond when all you have to go on is a bad photograph?

This is what I'm talking about. Plain, pure, old fashioned lies.

Nothing at all to do with quality or "knowing what you buy", or incorrect general descriptions, however, when a considerable part of the value of the item that you expect to bid upon is tied up in the material from which it is made, then any naming of that material must be accurate.

If you buy from a photograph and a description that description needs to be accurate, and all the disavowals in the world that can be found the Terms section of an auction catalogue do not replace honesty and care.

In fact, it is many years since I purchased anything that I could not either handle, or that was not offered to me by an experienced person whom I trusted.

MForde · 4th August 2019, 01:13 PM

Auction houses are notorious for poor accuracy. While I am firmly in the don't look for malice where ignorance is enough camp (they have a bewildering array of items to know, after all), I do believe that some of them honestly don't care a jot. Many don't even provide decent photographs.

Of course, this works both ways and while it can be a minefield one can also find the odd bargain.

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2019, 02:19 PM

True, but I say again:- I am not addressing the inaccuracy of description, I am addressing the naming of materials as materials of worth, when they are not materials of worth, in other words misrepresentation.

To know what precious metals and precious stones are they need to be tested, so if something is named as a precious metal or precious stone then that implies that it has been tested, but I have encountered numerous cases where silver plate or mamas has been named as silver. If it had been tested then it would be known that it was not silver. So what we have is either a lie or gross stupidity.

If the auctioneer has not tested, then he does not know what the material is and it should be made clear that he does not know. An opinion should be identified as an opinion, not as a statement of fact.

Kmaddock · 4th August 2019, 10:24 PM

Hi
Interesting topic.
My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include

do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain
If more than more than 300 try and view in person
If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it
Stop when I have reached my max price
Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures
If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not
Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them
And of course
I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly
Regards to all
Ken

Will M · 5th August 2019, 05:00 AM

I find interesting items and put in low bids without looking until the auction is over. I recently won two items this way and both are worth 6x and more of what I paid in total. If you do not have a bid in you cannot win just like a lotto ticket but much better odds..

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2019, 05:26 AM

Yes, you're right Will, buying at auction is a form of gambling, and just like any form of gambling you are best not to bid more than you are prepared to lose.

But then I don't gamble. Never have. I was given an excellent piece of advice by my grandfather when I was still a little kid:-

"Never gamble unless you own the game"

This came from a man who owned billiard rooms, poker machines, dice and card games, starting price bookmaking, in fact, every form of illegal gambling there was on offer, and who was a professional "negotiator" into the bargain.

Best advice I ever had.

4th August 2019, 01:00 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	In my initial post I mentioned two examples of what I believe could be construed as misrepresentation:- 1) material that is not silver presented as silver 2) material that in no way could be considered to be gems presented as gems. this is the point I am trying to drive home. I did not mention incorrect descriptions of type or style, I did not mention opinions. I mentioned material of little worth presented as material of worth. In other words misrepresentation. Of course we need to have an understanding of the items that we may bid on, of course we need to assess quality as best we can from photographs that are very often completely inadequate. All this is a given, and it is not at all what I was writing about. But how is it possible to know if one is looking at silver or polished mamas or silver plate from a photo, if experienced people need to test the material when they have it in their hands in order to know with certainty what it is? How is it possible to differentiate between cubic zirconia and diamond when all you have to go on is a bad photograph? This is what I'm talking about. Plain, pure, old fashioned lies. Nothing at all to do with quality or "knowing what you buy", or incorrect general descriptions, however, when a considerable part of the value of the item that you expect to bid upon is tied up in the material from which it is made, then any naming of that material must be accurate. If you buy from a photograph and a description that description needs to be accurate, and all the disavowals in the world that can be found the Terms section of an auction catalogue do not replace honesty and care. In fact, it is many years since I purchased anything that I could not either handle, or that was not offered to me by an experienced person whom I trusted.

4th August 2019, 01:13 PM	#3
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	Auction houses are notorious for poor accuracy. While I am firmly in the don't look for malice where ignorance is enough camp (they have a bewildering array of items to know, after all), I do believe that some of them honestly don't care a jot. Many don't even provide decent photographs. Of course, this works both ways and while it can be a minefield one can also find the odd bargain.

4th August 2019, 02:19 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	True, but I say again:- I am not addressing the inaccuracy of description, I am addressing the naming of materials as materials of worth, when they are not materials of worth, in other words misrepresentation. To know what precious metals and precious stones are they need to be tested, so if something is named as a precious metal or precious stone then that implies that it has been tested, but I have encountered numerous cases where silver plate or mamas has been named as silver. If it had been tested then it would be known that it was not silver. So what we have is either a lie or gross stupidity. If the auctioneer has not tested, then he does not know what the material is and it should be made clear that he does not know. An opinion should be identified as an opinion, not as a statement of fact.

4th August 2019, 10:24 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Interesting topic. My personal mantra for purchasing, off topic but I taught I would include do not spend more than 300 euro on an item unless I am certain If more than more than 300 try and view in person If an item has more than 3 flaws do not purchase it Stop when I have reached my max price Never trust auction descriptions or opinions always go with pictures If something is under 50 and looks interesting take the gamble, sometimes I get lucky sometimes not Mistakes are annoying but you learn from them And of course I regret more what I didn’t purchase than what I purchased badly Regards to all Ken

5th August 2019, 05:00 AM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I find interesting items and put in low bids without looking until the auction is over. I recently won two items this way and both are worth 6x and more of what I paid in total. If you do not have a bid in you cannot win just like a lotto ticket but much better odds..

5th August 2019, 05:26 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yes, you're right Will, buying at auction is a form of gambling, and just like any form of gambling you are best not to bid more than you are prepared to lose. But then I don't gamble. Never have. I was given an excellent piece of advice by my grandfather when I was still a little kid:- "Never gamble unless you own the game" This came from a man who owned billiard rooms, poker machines, dice and card games, starting price bookmaking, in fact, every form of illegal gambling there was on offer, and who was a professional "negotiator" into the bargain. Best advice I ever had.