Definition of a Greek yataghan?

Ian · 30th July 2019, 07:53 PM

Ariel,

Where do you think the recurved blades of some Nair swords (what Rawson called the "S. Indian flamboyant swords") fit into the overall picture of yataghan, and also the Indian sossun pata which is quite like a yataghan. Some of the Nair examples would seem to predate your time frame for the development of the yataghan in the Crimea area. I'm not sure when the sossun pata appeared, but it was probably during the Moghul period. Are we looking at a common source or parallel development for these swords?

Ian

ariel · 1st August 2019, 12:56 AM

It is an interesting and complicated question. My guess it is not either/or but a combination of both .

Simplifying things a bit, one can say that all sword blades can be put into four different boxes: straight, curved, recurved and wavy. Thus, it would probably be inevitable that totally separate societies might produce identical forms without any actual knowledge of the each other’s existence: purely parallel development.
My guess is that the Ancient Greek kopis and Indian Nair swords fall into this category. Another similar but later example would be Central European Bauernwehr ( Kord) and Afghani Khyber knife.

However, Indo-Muslim Sossun Pata may indeed stem from the Ottoman yataghan. I have already shown here an almost certainly original “ marriage” of a Tulwar handle and a genuine Ottoman yataghan blade. Turkish janissaries served as mercenaries in Indian armies. Deccan sailaba is another example: Some Deccan sultanate were established and led by the emigrating Turks.

ariel · 10th August 2019, 05:18 AM

Kubur,
Here a yataghan ( bichaq) produced for a Greek customer in Anatolia ( Pergamos).
Taken from e-bay, auction ended.

sfenoid13 · 10th August 2019, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur,
Here a yataghan ( bichaq) produced for a Greek customer in Anatolia ( Pergamos).
Taken from e-bay, auction ended.

Ariel, I don’t understand why you of all people who is a quasi-expert

in these matters would call this knife a “yatagan”. I know people use the name because of the handle resemblance and to get more hits on eBay but you and people here should not call this “knife”(bichaq) a yatagan. It has nothing to do with it. Yes it’s Greek but not a Yatagan.

ariel · 10th August 2019, 09:31 AM

What in particular makes you certain that this dagger has nothing to do with a family of Yataghans?

kronckew · 10th August 2019, 10:35 AM

The Balkan machaira/Greek kopis was carried (and presumably some were lost in battle) by Alexander thru Anatolia, Persia, Afghanistan, the 'Hindu kush', thru the Himalayas and through India, and back though the northern gulf coast, and after his death into Egypt and beyond. Considering the active well used trading routes of the time, the design as well as the weapons themselves could easily travel to north africa and thru India to SE asia. 'Parallel evolution' can easily be cultural appropriation. Hey, this vase is cool, can you make me a big knife like that greek fellow on my wine jug? We tend to forget even the Romans, as well as the greeks traded with India and beyond, for silks and spices, and it was a two way system connecting from the bronze age up till the modern age, without gaps.

kronckew · 10th August 2019, 10:43 AM

p.s.- my Balkan/Romanian 'greek' shepherds knife or karakulak yat, 24 in. blade, small ears, integral bolster.

Kubur · 10th August 2019, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfenoid13

Ariel, I don’t understand why you of all people who is a quasi-expert

in these matters would call this knife a “yatagan”. I know people use the name because of the handle resemblance and to get more hits on eBay but you and people here should not call this “knife”(bichaq) a yatagan. It has nothing to do with it. Yes it’s Greek but not a Yatagan.

I think Arial wrote bichaq.

Ariel you got my idea, even if you probably don't share it.

This is a good example of Greek weapon, a good Christian orthodox dagger with typical niello and engravings i don't even speak of the date nor the inscription on the blade...

I think this dagger has a nice yataghan handle

I saw some daggers with yataganish blades

so my questions are
what is the minimum and maximum size for a yataghan?
a yataghan is it the blade or the handle?
i saw many yataghans with straight blades

1st August 2019, 12:56 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is an interesting and complicated question. My guess it is not either/or but a combination of both . Simplifying things a bit, one can say that all sword blades can be put into four different boxes: straight, curved, recurved and wavy. Thus, it would probably be inevitable that totally separate societies might produce identical forms without any actual knowledge of the each other’s existence: purely parallel development. My guess is that the Ancient Greek kopis and Indian Nair swords fall into this category. Another similar but later example would be Central European Bauernwehr ( Kord) and Afghani Khyber knife. However, Indo-Muslim Sossun Pata may indeed stem from the Ottoman yataghan. I have already shown here an almost certainly original “ marriage” of a Tulwar handle and a genuine Ottoman yataghan blade. Turkish janissaries served as mercenaries in Indian armies. Deccan sailaba is another example: Some Deccan sultanate were established and led by the emigrating Turks. Last edited by ariel; 1st August 2019 at 06:01 AM.

10th August 2019, 05:18 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, Here a yataghan ( bichaq) produced for a Greek customer in Anatolia ( Pergamos). Taken from e-bay, auction ended. Attached Images

10th August 2019, 10:35 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	The Balkan machaira/Greek kopis was carried (and presumably some were lost in battle) by Alexander thru Anatolia, Persia, Afghanistan, the 'Hindu kush', thru the Himalayas and through India, and back though the northern gulf coast, and after his death into Egypt and beyond. Considering the active well used trading routes of the time, the design as well as the weapons themselves could easily travel to north africa and thru India to SE asia. 'Parallel evolution' can easily be cultural appropriation. Hey, this vase is cool, can you make me a big knife like that greek fellow on my wine jug? We tend to forget even the Romans, as well as the greeks traded with India and beyond, for silks and spices, and it was a two way system connecting from the bronze age up till the modern age, without gaps. Attached Images

10th August 2019, 10:43 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	p.s.- my Balkan/Romanian 'greek' shepherds knife or karakulak yat, 24 in. blade, small ears, integral bolster. Attached Images

30th July 2019, 07:53 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Ariel, Where do you think the recurved blades of some Nair swords (what Rawson called the "S. Indian flamboyant swords") fit into the overall picture of yataghan, and also the Indian sossun pata which is quite like a yataghan. Some of the Nair examples would seem to predate your time frame for the development of the yataghan in the Crimea area. I'm not sure when the sossun pata appeared, but it was probably during the Moghul period. Are we looking at a common source or parallel development for these swords? Ian

10th August 2019, 09:31 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What in particular makes you certain that this dagger has nothing to do with a family of Yataghans?