Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

ariel · 17th July 2019, 03:55 PM

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

ariel · 17th July 2019, 04:02 PM

Teodor,
Precisely.
The art of niello , according to Circassian master Asia Eutykh, was brought to Caucasus by the Greeks. She traces her name to somebody names Eutyhios.

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

TVV · 17th July 2019, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

It's the opposite and it's funny that that you turn my question to you into a question to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

However, decorative techniques and motives were based on regional preference, and the shape and decoration of the bolster is associated with Greece. The style of the blade, with the upturned tip is also a Cretan and Greek characteristic. So based on this, it seems most likely that this yataghan was made in Greece.
Teodor

I used Elgood to demonstrate that your attribution was wrong and i asked you to provide evidence.
You didn't provide any evidences and worst you use the reference that I produced as an evidence and you try to put the ball on my side. I even shouldn't waste my time to write... You are not the first forum member to do that. This is not serious and childish. End of.

TVV · 17th July 2019, 06:49 PM

Oh boy, that escalated quickly. Before the moderators act, I will make one more attempt to clarify my participation and position in this thread - it was in response to Khleben, not personally to you, Kubur. I actually value and respect your opinion, Kubur, I really do, even if we disagree on something.

Back to my response in post 2 - I answered Khleben's question based on my knowledge. It is always good to questions answers to make sure whether correct or not, this is what the forum is for and I do not mid that a bit. So I provided a copy of a relevant figure from Elgood's book, which is the only book that actually makes an attempt to attribute yataghans geographically based on the author's study of museum collections in Greece and the Western Balkans.

At this point, it is really up to everyone reading the thread to make their own conclusions based on the information presented here - and hopefully do so without letting their emotions get the better of them.

OsobistGB · 17th July 2019, 09:56 PM

It is very difficult to tell where the yatagan was produced.Therefore we take into account the style of workmanship.Without any hypothesis and fantasy ... the style of work is Greek!Here's an example some of my Ελληνική λεπίδες

Khelben · 25th July 2019, 04:25 AM

Sorry for the late reply. Been a hectic and stressful week, with a bunch of houseguests, and a dead pet.

Here are some additional photos people requested, including closeups of the brass rivets in the hilt, and another closeup of the maker's mark. I'll take a look at the maker's mark catalogue that was linked now to see if I can place it.

17th July 2019, 09:56 PM	#7
OsobistGB Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 95	It is very difficult to tell where the yatagan was produced.Therefore we take into account the style of workmanship.Without any hypothesis and fantasy ... the style of work is Greek!Here's an example some of my Ελληνική λεπίδες Attached Images

25th July 2019, 04:25 AM	#8
Khelben Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 3	Sorry for the late reply. Been a hectic and stressful week, with a bunch of houseguests, and a dead pet. Here are some additional photos people requested, including closeups of the brass rivets in the hilt, and another closeup of the maker's mark. I'll take a look at the maker's mark catalogue that was linked now to see if I can place it. Attached Images

17th July 2019, 03:55 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier. If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

17th July 2019, 04:02 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, Precisely. The art of niello , according to Circassian master Asia Eutykh, was brought to Caucasus by the Greeks. She traces her name to somebody names Eutyhios.

17th July 2019, 06:49 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Oh boy, that escalated quickly. Before the moderators act, I will make one more attempt to clarify my participation and position in this thread - it was in response to Khleben, not personally to you, Kubur. I actually value and respect your opinion, Kubur, I really do, even if we disagree on something. Back to my response in post 2 - I answered Khleben's question based on my knowledge. It is always good to questions answers to make sure whether correct or not, this is what the forum is for and I do not mid that a bit. So I provided a copy of a relevant figure from Elgood's book, which is the only book that actually makes an attempt to attribute yataghans geographically based on the author's study of museum collections in Greece and the Western Balkans. At this point, it is really up to everyone reading the thread to make their own conclusions based on the information presented here - and hopefully do so without letting their emotions get the better of them.