Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

fernando · 13th July 2019, 02:09 PM

While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are.

On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty

.

They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks,
The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock.
So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel

.

.

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2019, 10:07 PM

AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...…..
The DERRINGER Buntline!!!!

Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm!

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2019, 10:33 PM

So here's the thing about Billy's M1873 Winchester so moved about in the immortal tintype of 1880. It seems (according to Paulita Maxwell, generally thought to be his girlfriend) he had this tintype made in 1880 (probably summer) at she claimed that it was done in front of Smith's saloon in town. Here Billy and his pals spent a lot of time, and Billy actually dealt cards there, and remarkably Pat Garrett was at the time bartender.

Pal Charlie Bowdrie had a CDV photo done with his wife Manuela in Las Vegas, N.M. earlier and he had his weapons, including his rifle across his lap (seated).
Billy wanted to have one done, and an itinerant photographer set up his wagon near the saloon. Accounts say it was quite easy to perform these tintypes, as equipment was inexpensive and one did not need to be professional. It seems certain the guns Billy had were his, and he brought them for the image.

It seems men in this rugged territory typically went about armed (obviously in these 'war' conditions) however Paulita said Billy was very neat about his clothes in town...and NEVER would have worn these type things except on the range. The crumpled slouch hat was also not his usual 'sugarloaf sombero' which he got from Chihuahua.
Apparently the photographer had him position the Winchester in holding position to steady him for the image, he pushed back the sweater on his RIGHT side to reveal the Colt revolver.
These tintypes (there were 4 ) cost two bits, and one ended up with newspaper which of course boosted his notoriety as a deadly outlaw.

NOW THE QUESTION:

If Billy was captured at Stinking Springs in December of 1880, and there is no mention of his Winchester......and he was held captive until his escape in April. Where was the Winchester?
Obviously he could not have had it in jail......he does not seem to have had it at Stinking Springs, and no mention is made of it at the time of his death in July (July 14, 1881 , exactly 138 hears ago) .

I saw a Winchester M1873 in the 'Billy the Kid ' museum in Ft. Sumner, N.M. several days ago, and it says it was given away by Billy 2 months before his death.

Hombre · 6th August 2019, 10:37 AM

In Joseph G. Rosas: "The taming of the west. Age if the gunfighter" you can read:
“Billy the Kid carried a variety of Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers during the course of his career. However it is also claimed that in about 1880 he swapped his Peacemaker for a Colt .41 caliber double-action “Thunderer”.
In the book you can also see a Whitney-Kennedy lever action carbine and the text goes:
“The Whitney-Kennedy lever-action carbine is purported to have been presented by the Kid to deputy U.S marshal Eugene Van Patten for treating him fairly when in his charge. Van Patten treasured the gift, recalling the part he played in the Kid´s life”.

/Stefan
Sweden

fernando · 6th August 2019, 11:41 AM

Most interesting, Hombre

.

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2019, 02:40 PM

Hombre, thank you so much for this reference!!! I have another book by Rosa which did not include that material, so this is outstanding. Its amazing that one of the foremost experts on western gunfighters was this brilliant researcher and writer from England.
Apparently he also wrote one of the most authentic biographies of Wild Bill Hickok as well as many other articles on the west.

It seems like 'the Kid' was quite the diplomat in his exchanges with some officials, and was an eloquent letter writer as well.

The lore of the west is so fascinating, thank you again for the great heads up

Hombre · 7th August 2019, 10:43 AM

Thank you, guys!
I really like to read Joseph G Rosa`s books..... The books he wrote about
James Butler Hickok are outstanding and some others too....
I have been collecting books about the Old American West since I was a kid and when I started to collect old Winchesters, Marlin lever guns and Colt SAA revolver then the reference books are a must....
I only wish that I had the same library when it comes to blades...

Best,
Stefan

13th July 2019, 02:09 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Naming things ... While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are. On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty . They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks, The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock. So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel . . Attached Images

14th July 2019, 10:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...….. The DERRINGER Buntline!!!! Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm! Attached Images

14th July 2019, 10:33 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	So here's the thing about Billy's M1873 Winchester so moved about in the immortal tintype of 1880. It seems (according to Paulita Maxwell, generally thought to be his girlfriend) he had this tintype made in 1880 (probably summer) at she claimed that it was done in front of Smith's saloon in town. Here Billy and his pals spent a lot of time, and Billy actually dealt cards there, and remarkably Pat Garrett was at the time bartender. Pal Charlie Bowdrie had a CDV photo done with his wife Manuela in Las Vegas, N.M. earlier and he had his weapons, including his rifle across his lap (seated). Billy wanted to have one done, and an itinerant photographer set up his wagon near the saloon. Accounts say it was quite easy to perform these tintypes, as equipment was inexpensive and one did not need to be professional. It seems certain the guns Billy had were his, and he brought them for the image. It seems men in this rugged territory typically went about armed (obviously in these 'war' conditions) however Paulita said Billy was very neat about his clothes in town...and NEVER would have worn these type things except on the range. The crumpled slouch hat was also not his usual 'sugarloaf sombero' which he got from Chihuahua. Apparently the photographer had him position the Winchester in holding position to steady him for the image, he pushed back the sweater on his RIGHT side to reveal the Colt revolver. These tintypes (there were 4 ) cost two bits, and one ended up with newspaper which of course boosted his notoriety as a deadly outlaw. NOW THE QUESTION: If Billy was captured at Stinking Springs in December of 1880, and there is no mention of his Winchester......and he was held captive until his escape in April. Where was the Winchester? Obviously he could not have had it in jail......he does not seem to have had it at Stinking Springs, and no mention is made of it at the time of his death in July (July 14, 1881 , exactly 138 hears ago) . I saw a Winchester M1873 in the 'Billy the Kid ' museum in Ft. Sumner, N.M. several days ago, and it says it was given away by Billy 2 months before his death. Attached Images

7th August 2019, 10:43 AM	#7
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Thank you, guys! I really like to read Joseph G Rosa`s books..... The books he wrote about James Butler Hickok are outstanding and some others too.... I have been collecting books about the Old American West since I was a kid and when I started to collect old Winchesters, Marlin lever guns and Colt SAA revolver then the reference books are a must.... I only wish that I had the same library when it comes to blades... Best, Stefan Attached Images

6th August 2019, 10:37 AM	#4
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	In Joseph G. Rosas: "The taming of the west. Age if the gunfighter" you can read: “Billy the Kid carried a variety of Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers during the course of his career. However it is also claimed that in about 1880 he swapped his Peacemaker for a Colt .41 caliber double-action “Thunderer”. In the book you can also see a Whitney-Kennedy lever action carbine and the text goes: “The Whitney-Kennedy lever-action carbine is purported to have been presented by the Kid to deputy U.S marshal Eugene Van Patten for treating him fairly when in his charge. Van Patten treasured the gift, recalling the part he played in the Kid´s life”. /Stefan Sweden

6th August 2019, 11:41 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Most interesting, Hombre .

6th August 2019, 02:40 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hombre, thank you so much for this reference!!! I have another book by Rosa which did not include that material, so this is outstanding. Its amazing that one of the foremost experts on western gunfighters was this brilliant researcher and writer from England. Apparently he also wrote one of the most authentic biographies of Wild Bill Hickok as well as many other articles on the west. It seems like 'the Kid' was quite the diplomat in his exchanges with some officials, and was an eloquent letter writer as well. The lore of the west is so fascinating, thank you again for the great heads up