Billy the Kid and the Colt Thunderer pistol

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2019, 06:38 PM

Good stuff, while the 'jury is still out' on the 'croquet' photo, it remains compelling despite the rebuttal of many recognized experts.
While the individual presumed to be Billy is certainly of the age etc. forensic comparison is always strained in these kinds of matters, and the complete absence of provenance renders it suspicious at best.

It seems references I have seen on this particular image often note the other figures in it by name, and among the number are names like Chisum, Maxwell and Scurlock. All of these are persons known to be 'Regulators' or known friends of Billy's. These would be corroborating if comparing their images with other known contemporary images of them. I am not sure if this has been done, but I must imagine that it has.

Returning to the well known tintype of Billy, as noted, it is quite possible that the photographer may have provided these guns as props, however Billy may have as easily fetched his own guns for the image. With these type images by professional photographers we know that tintypes and the later forms of CDV (carte de visite) the posed person seems to almost invariably hold the same weapon forms in the same position. This is evident in Civil War images where the soldiers typically hold a Colt M1851 Navy and a Bowie knife in a notably 'serious' manner.
'Gunfighters' of course, would typically want their image to match their purported reputations, which only added to the hyperbole.

With that, the term gunfighter is not known to have been used before c. 1894 officially (in dictionaries) but was certainly known much earlier. The term 'shootist' was typically designating notable marksmen (or women as with Anne Oakley) but may have been used for gunfighters occasionally. We know of course the term was so used in the John Wayne classic "the Shootist".
The term pistoleer, as noted, was from the Spanish/Mexican 'pistolero' and with the profound presence of Mexican gunfighters throughout the 'west' of course filtered into the slang of the times. A pocket type pistol was a 'pistola'.
Wild Bill Hickok was often called a pistoleer, but perhaps loosely referred to his use of the Bulldog pistol. In later years, with failing eyesight he deferred his 'gunfighting' ways and took to gambling. When he was assassinated in Deadwood by Jack McCall in Saloon #10, he had a pocket carried Smith & Wesson #2 revolver, but shot from behind, never had the chance to use it .

With 'guns', a pocket pistol (like the Thunderer) was 'carried' , and when used was not 'drawn' but PULLED.
The revolver holstered was 'drawn'...…..and was broadly termed a 'gun'.

The 'Buntline' was actually intended as a kind of revolver rifle hybrid, and these usually had added rifle stock as an accessory. It was not intended as a holstered gun for wear for defense, and obviously its barrel would severely impair such use.
Indeed Wyatt retained his as made as a novelty, while the other four notable recipients (the five guns were presented by pulp writer Ned Buntline) had their barrels cut down to standard length.

fernando · 13th July 2019, 03:09 PM

While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are.

On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty

.

They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks,
The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock.
So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel

.

.

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2019, 11:07 PM

AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...…..
The DERRINGER Buntline!!!!

Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm!

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2019, 11:33 PM

So here's the thing about Billy's M1873 Winchester so moved about in the immortal tintype of 1880. It seems (according to Paulita Maxwell, generally thought to be his girlfriend) he had this tintype made in 1880 (probably summer) at she claimed that it was done in front of Smith's saloon in town. Here Billy and his pals spent a lot of time, and Billy actually dealt cards there, and remarkably Pat Garrett was at the time bartender.

Pal Charlie Bowdrie had a CDV photo done with his wife Manuela in Las Vegas, N.M. earlier and he had his weapons, including his rifle across his lap (seated).
Billy wanted to have one done, and an itinerant photographer set up his wagon near the saloon. Accounts say it was quite easy to perform these tintypes, as equipment was inexpensive and one did not need to be professional. It seems certain the guns Billy had were his, and he brought them for the image.

It seems men in this rugged territory typically went about armed (obviously in these 'war' conditions) however Paulita said Billy was very neat about his clothes in town...and NEVER would have worn these type things except on the range. The crumpled slouch hat was also not his usual 'sugarloaf sombero' which he got from Chihuahua.
Apparently the photographer had him position the Winchester in holding position to steady him for the image, he pushed back the sweater on his RIGHT side to reveal the Colt revolver.
These tintypes (there were 4 ) cost two bits, and one ended up with newspaper which of course boosted his notoriety as a deadly outlaw.

NOW THE QUESTION:

If Billy was captured at Stinking Springs in December of 1880, and there is no mention of his Winchester......and he was held captive until his escape in April. Where was the Winchester?
Obviously he could not have had it in jail......he does not seem to have had it at Stinking Springs, and no mention is made of it at the time of his death in July (July 14, 1881 , exactly 138 hears ago) .

I saw a Winchester M1873 in the 'Billy the Kid ' museum in Ft. Sumner, N.M. several days ago, and it says it was given away by Billy 2 months before his death.

Hombre · 6th August 2019, 11:37 AM

In Joseph G. Rosas: "The taming of the west. Age if the gunfighter" you can read:
“Billy the Kid carried a variety of Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers during the course of his career. However it is also claimed that in about 1880 he swapped his Peacemaker for a Colt .41 caliber double-action “Thunderer”.
In the book you can also see a Whitney-Kennedy lever action carbine and the text goes:
“The Whitney-Kennedy lever-action carbine is purported to have been presented by the Kid to deputy U.S marshal Eugene Van Patten for treating him fairly when in his charge. Van Patten treasured the gift, recalling the part he played in the Kid´s life”.

/Stefan
Sweden

fernando · 6th August 2019, 12:41 PM

Most interesting, Hombre

.

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2019, 03:40 PM

Hombre, thank you so much for this reference!!! I have another book by Rosa which did not include that material, so this is outstanding. Its amazing that one of the foremost experts on western gunfighters was this brilliant researcher and writer from England.
Apparently he also wrote one of the most authentic biographies of Wild Bill Hickok as well as many other articles on the west.

It seems like 'the Kid' was quite the diplomat in his exchanges with some officials, and was an eloquent letter writer as well.

The lore of the west is so fascinating, thank you again for the great heads up

14th July 2019, 11:07 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	AH, but there was another little known 'Buntline'...….. The DERRINGER Buntline!!!! Something that came to me in the mists of Western myth and lore. Hmmmm! Attached Images

14th July 2019, 11:33 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	So here's the thing about Billy's M1873 Winchester so moved about in the immortal tintype of 1880. It seems (according to Paulita Maxwell, generally thought to be his girlfriend) he had this tintype made in 1880 (probably summer) at she claimed that it was done in front of Smith's saloon in town. Here Billy and his pals spent a lot of time, and Billy actually dealt cards there, and remarkably Pat Garrett was at the time bartender. Pal Charlie Bowdrie had a CDV photo done with his wife Manuela in Las Vegas, N.M. earlier and he had his weapons, including his rifle across his lap (seated). Billy wanted to have one done, and an itinerant photographer set up his wagon near the saloon. Accounts say it was quite easy to perform these tintypes, as equipment was inexpensive and one did not need to be professional. It seems certain the guns Billy had were his, and he brought them for the image. It seems men in this rugged territory typically went about armed (obviously in these 'war' conditions) however Paulita said Billy was very neat about his clothes in town...and NEVER would have worn these type things except on the range. The crumpled slouch hat was also not his usual 'sugarloaf sombero' which he got from Chihuahua. Apparently the photographer had him position the Winchester in holding position to steady him for the image, he pushed back the sweater on his RIGHT side to reveal the Colt revolver. These tintypes (there were 4 ) cost two bits, and one ended up with newspaper which of course boosted his notoriety as a deadly outlaw. NOW THE QUESTION: If Billy was captured at Stinking Springs in December of 1880, and there is no mention of his Winchester......and he was held captive until his escape in April. Where was the Winchester? Obviously he could not have had it in jail......he does not seem to have had it at Stinking Springs, and no mention is made of it at the time of his death in July (July 14, 1881 , exactly 138 hears ago) . I saw a Winchester M1873 in the 'Billy the Kid ' museum in Ft. Sumner, N.M. several days ago, and it says it was given away by Billy 2 months before his death. Attached Images

11th July 2019, 06:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Good stuff, while the 'jury is still out' on the 'croquet' photo, it remains compelling despite the rebuttal of many recognized experts. While the individual presumed to be Billy is certainly of the age etc. forensic comparison is always strained in these kinds of matters, and the complete absence of provenance renders it suspicious at best. It seems references I have seen on this particular image often note the other figures in it by name, and among the number are names like Chisum, Maxwell and Scurlock. All of these are persons known to be 'Regulators' or known friends of Billy's. These would be corroborating if comparing their images with other known contemporary images of them. I am not sure if this has been done, but I must imagine that it has. Returning to the well known tintype of Billy, as noted, it is quite possible that the photographer may have provided these guns as props, however Billy may have as easily fetched his own guns for the image. With these type images by professional photographers we know that tintypes and the later forms of CDV (carte de visite) the posed person seems to almost invariably hold the same weapon forms in the same position. This is evident in Civil War images where the soldiers typically hold a Colt M1851 Navy and a Bowie knife in a notably 'serious' manner. 'Gunfighters' of course, would typically want their image to match their purported reputations, which only added to the hyperbole. With that, the term gunfighter is not known to have been used before c. 1894 officially (in dictionaries) but was certainly known much earlier. The term 'shootist' was typically designating notable marksmen (or women as with Anne Oakley) but may have been used for gunfighters occasionally. We know of course the term was so used in the John Wayne classic "the Shootist". The term pistoleer, as noted, was from the Spanish/Mexican 'pistolero' and with the profound presence of Mexican gunfighters throughout the 'west' of course filtered into the slang of the times. A pocket type pistol was a 'pistola'. Wild Bill Hickok was often called a pistoleer, but perhaps loosely referred to his use of the Bulldog pistol. In later years, with failing eyesight he deferred his 'gunfighting' ways and took to gambling. When he was assassinated in Deadwood by Jack McCall in Saloon #10, he had a pocket carried Smith & Wesson #2 revolver, but shot from behind, never had the chance to use it . With 'guns', a pocket pistol (like the Thunderer) was 'carried' , and when used was not 'drawn' but PULLED. The revolver holstered was 'drawn'...…..and was broadly termed a 'gun'. The 'Buntline' was actually intended as a kind of revolver rifle hybrid, and these usually had added rifle stock as an accessory. It was not intended as a holstered gun for wear for defense, and obviously its barrel would severely impair such use. Indeed Wyatt retained his as made as a novelty, while the other four notable recipients (the five guns were presented by pulp writer Ned Buntline) had their barrels cut down to standard length.

13th July 2019, 03:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Naming things ... While we here use the generic term 'pistoleiro' for a gun man, we make a clear distinction when naming a 'revolver' or a 'pistola', as so technically different they are. On the Buntline; once it has its barrel shortened, is no more a Buntline ... but a Buntshorty . They say that what Ned Buntline did, was no more that ordering five 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, outfitted them with 12 inch barrels and clamp on wood butt stocks, The classic Colt Army/Navy .44 caliber also has lugs for attaching a shoulder stock. So what he actually did as new was ... stretch the barrel . . Attached Images

6th August 2019, 11:37 AM	#5
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	In Joseph G. Rosas: "The taming of the west. Age if the gunfighter" you can read: “Billy the Kid carried a variety of Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers during the course of his career. However it is also claimed that in about 1880 he swapped his Peacemaker for a Colt .41 caliber double-action “Thunderer”. In the book you can also see a Whitney-Kennedy lever action carbine and the text goes: “The Whitney-Kennedy lever-action carbine is purported to have been presented by the Kid to deputy U.S marshal Eugene Van Patten for treating him fairly when in his charge. Van Patten treasured the gift, recalling the part he played in the Kid´s life”. /Stefan Sweden

6th August 2019, 12:41 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Most interesting, Hombre .

6th August 2019, 03:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hombre, thank you so much for this reference!!! I have another book by Rosa which did not include that material, so this is outstanding. Its amazing that one of the foremost experts on western gunfighters was this brilliant researcher and writer from England. Apparently he also wrote one of the most authentic biographies of Wild Bill Hickok as well as many other articles on the west. It seems like 'the Kid' was quite the diplomat in his exchanges with some officials, and was an eloquent letter writer as well. The lore of the west is so fascinating, thank you again for the great heads up