Old Cirebon Keris for comment.

Jean · 23rd June 2019, 10:47 AM

Pics of my similar blade in Segaluh style, also similar to Patje's blade in another recent thread. The nice ivory hilt is in alternative style from West Java/ North Coast/ East Java.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 23rd June 2019, 01:39 PM

Jean, can you explain why you favour East Jawa for the scabbard?

Athanase tells us he put it together from two unrelated pieces, so both of these must be from East Jawa?

Personally I would have a lot of difficulty in placing a scabbard like this into any particular area. Javanese, certainly, but where in Jawa? Well somewhere that is not under the direct influence of a kraton. Who might have used such a scabbard? I think I'd probably be placing the original owner towards the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.

East Jawa does have some distinctive styles, but I would hesitate to include this scabbard amongst those styles.

Athanase · 23rd June 2019, 06:25 PM

Thank you for this valuable information!

For the scabbard, the gambar was originally with another old Keris Segaluh blade, but it lacked the ganja (without gandar, without mendak nor handle).
For the gandar, which comes from a lot of spare pieces of scabbard.
The wood and the form is very similar to what I have more complete from Madura and East Java (and perhaps also central java) which are, in Europe, the most common origins of Kriss or their spare parts.

Jean · 23rd June 2019, 07:44 PM

Alan, Séverin,
Thank you for your messages.
From my observations and references the scabbard from Séverin is typical of the gayaman style from East Java/ Madura (see another typical specimen shown on my first pic).
Again from my observations and references the old kris scabbards from West Java and the North Coast of Java (Cirebon and Tegal) are very rarely (if any) made from timoho pelet wood but rather from a local dark wood which could be kayu areng or sono keling? Also the gayaman style of scabbard is quite rare in these areas and the gandar has a specific shape (thick and wide at the mouth and with a peculiar shape of buntut) unlike the scabbards from East Java. You can see 2 typical specimens on my second and third pic, the first one is from Java North Coast and the second one probably from West Java.
Of course I could be wrong and apologize in advance.
Regards

Jean · 23rd June 2019, 08:21 PM

Another typical gayaman scabbard from East Java/ Madura.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 23rd June 2019, 11:44 PM

Thank you for your response Jean, we can all be wrong, so apologies are not necessary, similarly, we all only give opinions based upon our own experience, and since all of us have limited experience our opinions are similarly limited.

My position on Severin's gambar is not that it is North Jawa. I am not comparing this scabbard as North Coast against East Coast. I am comparing it's component parts against all of the rest of Jawa.

In my experience the gambar displays Surakarta influence, it is similar in some ways to the areas to the West of Solo, towards Banyumas. To my eye it does not display any unique characteristics that would indicate East Jawa or North Coast Jawa. The craftsmanship is very pedestrian, there is nothing in this gambar that indicates the work of a highly skilled hand. I am not prepared to give an opinion on where it might be from, to my eye it is generic Jawa, but it does display Surakarta characteristics, and that is only to be expected because of the very widespread influence of Surakarta style (in all things).

I think I do understand why you want to place it as Jawa Timur, tapi for me the indicators are not strong enough.

The gandar used by Severin displays characteristics of two very old ladrangan wrongkos in my own collection, one of those was collected in Batavia around 1920, the other I bought in Sydney in 1956. Both the keris in these two wrongkos have ivory North Coast raksasa hilts, both are straight Tuban keris, both scabbards are made from timoho. The gambars of both keris are damaged badly neither are Cirebon ladrangs, in overall form they tend towards Ngyogyakarta, but I would not go so far as to classify them as Jogja. I cannot place these ladrang gambars into an area, they are just generic Jawa. Both gambars are original to the blades.

Jean, the top photo in your examples I would place as Madura, the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura. The bottom one puzzles me a little, I'd probably give it as Madura, but I would need to handle it to be sure.

I am reluctant to use material in Javanese wrongkos as an indicator. It is true that East Jawa wrongkos often use timoho or other kayu pelet, but timoho & pelet occurs in wrongkos from all over Jawa & Bali. In my opinion material is not a good location indicator. The only reliable indicator is style.

In any case, once this gambar & gandar have been properly mated, and the blade properly fitted, it will present as a very nice old keris, one that other collectors in 100 years time will try to classify --- and those collectors also will have limited experience, even more limited than collectors of today.

Jean · 24th June 2019, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura.

Alan,
The scabbard (iras) shown on my second picture is undoubtfully old and looks original but the gambar is undersized indeed and the gandar was probably covered by a pendok, which gives it its odd appearance.
Regarding the proposed West Java origin for the third specimen, I have relied on the opinion of the Swiss expert Gaspard de Marval, see page 41 of his reference book "Le Monde du Kriss", and he also shows a typical gayaman scabbard from East Java.
Regards

David · 26th June 2019, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, the top photo in your examples I would place as Madura, the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura. The bottom one puzzles me a little, I'd probably give it as Madura, but I would need to handle it to be sure.

Just an observation and perhaps a literal "point of order" here.
It has been my experience that when we post images on this site they don't always appear in the same order on everyone's computer screen. For instance, when i look at Jean's post that Alan is discussing in the above quote, the timoho pelet wrongko is the third and last image to appear and the "dark wood" wrongko that Jean describes as West Jawa appears first. Fortunately Alan does refer to what he sees as the third image as the "dark wood" wrongko. Otherwise i would have been mislead by his assessment. I wanted to point this out so that everyone is aware of this issue when they post numerous keris in a single post.

23rd June 2019, 10:47 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Pics of my similar blade in Segaluh style, also similar to Patje's blade in another recent thread. The nice ivory hilt is in alternative style from West Java/ North Coast/ East Java. Regards Attached Images

23rd June 2019, 06:25 PM	#3
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Thank you for this valuable information! For the scabbard, the gambar was originally with another old Keris Segaluh blade, but it lacked the ganja (without gandar, without mendak nor handle). For the gandar, which comes from a lot of spare pieces of scabbard. The wood and the form is very similar to what I have more complete from Madura and East Java (and perhaps also central java) which are, in Europe, the most common origins of Kriss or their spare parts. Last edited by Athanase; 23rd June 2019 at 07:34 PM.

23rd June 2019, 07:44 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Alan, Séverin, Thank you for your messages. From my observations and references the scabbard from Séverin is typical of the gayaman style from East Java/ Madura (see another typical specimen shown on my first pic). Again from my observations and references the old kris scabbards from West Java and the North Coast of Java (Cirebon and Tegal) are very rarely (if any) made from timoho pelet wood but rather from a local dark wood which could be kayu areng or sono keling? Also the gayaman style of scabbard is quite rare in these areas and the gandar has a specific shape (thick and wide at the mouth and with a peculiar shape of buntut) unlike the scabbards from East Java. You can see 2 typical specimens on my second and third pic, the first one is from Java North Coast and the second one probably from West Java. Of course I could be wrong and apologize in advance. Regards Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 23rd June 2019 at 08:27 PM.

23rd June 2019, 08:21 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Another typical gayaman scabbard from East Java/ Madura. Regards Attached Images

23rd June 2019, 11:44 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thank you for your response Jean, we can all be wrong, so apologies are not necessary, similarly, we all only give opinions based upon our own experience, and since all of us have limited experience our opinions are similarly limited. My position on Severin's gambar is not that it is North Jawa. I am not comparing this scabbard as North Coast against East Coast. I am comparing it's component parts against all of the rest of Jawa. In my experience the gambar displays Surakarta influence, it is similar in some ways to the areas to the West of Solo, towards Banyumas. To my eye it does not display any unique characteristics that would indicate East Jawa or North Coast Jawa. The craftsmanship is very pedestrian, there is nothing in this gambar that indicates the work of a highly skilled hand. I am not prepared to give an opinion on where it might be from, to my eye it is generic Jawa, but it does display Surakarta characteristics, and that is only to be expected because of the very widespread influence of Surakarta style (in all things). I think I do understand why you want to place it as Jawa Timur, tapi for me the indicators are not strong enough. The gandar used by Severin displays characteristics of two very old ladrangan wrongkos in my own collection, one of those was collected in Batavia around 1920, the other I bought in Sydney in 1956. Both the keris in these two wrongkos have ivory North Coast raksasa hilts, both are straight Tuban keris, both scabbards are made from timoho. The gambars of both keris are damaged badly neither are Cirebon ladrangs, in overall form they tend towards Ngyogyakarta, but I would not go so far as to classify them as Jogja. I cannot place these ladrang gambars into an area, they are just generic Jawa. Both gambars are original to the blades. Jean, the top photo in your examples I would place as Madura, the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura. The bottom one puzzles me a little, I'd probably give it as Madura, but I would need to handle it to be sure. I am reluctant to use material in Javanese wrongkos as an indicator. It is true that East Jawa wrongkos often use timoho or other kayu pelet, but timoho & pelet occurs in wrongkos from all over Jawa & Bali. In my opinion material is not a good location indicator. The only reliable indicator is style. In any case, once this gambar & gandar have been properly mated, and the blade properly fitted, it will present as a very nice old keris, one that other collectors in 100 years time will try to classify --- and those collectors also will have limited experience, even more limited than collectors of today. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 24th June 2019 at 01:25 AM.

23rd June 2019, 01:39 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, can you explain why you favour East Jawa for the scabbard? Athanase tells us he put it together from two unrelated pieces, so both of these must be from East Jawa? Personally I would have a lot of difficulty in placing a scabbard like this into any particular area. Javanese, certainly, but where in Jawa? Well somewhere that is not under the direct influence of a kraton. Who might have used such a scabbard? I think I'd probably be placing the original owner towards the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. East Jawa does have some distinctive styles, but I would hesitate to include this scabbard amongst those styles.