Indian Tulwar with Rare Hand Guard

[RAMBA]

Originally Posted by Kubur

the other pages

Thanks Kubur - this makes it all very interesting - This is why one posts these things up to get a good discussion going. I do see the similar styles here.

[RAMBA]

I have uploaded some more images.

[MForde]

Regarding guard additions and perforations I share two I've had with those features (hopefully I can attach the photos correctly):

[Edward F]

The half guard is not found to often,i always felt that it was a transitional variation

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Edward F

The half guard is not found to often,i always felt that it was a transitional variation

Hi Edward,
That is a most reasonable observation, but in many ethnographic forms, especially in India, there is typically not a linear progression in hilt development, or at least that can be defined accurately.

Most weapon forms are very traditional, and take from early types, but often with subtle and often very regional or sometimes personal preference features. The 'tulwar' (with 'Indo Persian' hilt) for example, often has certain features which some have tried to characterize regionally, or into periods, but this has proven mostly futile. In most cases such things are accomplished by looking into decoration aspects.

In the case of these half guards, it would seem as has been shown, that there was certain favor toward these kinds of hilt elements which were seen on some of the 'chilanum' type daggers. It is not uncommon to see such transfer of dagger hilt styles (invariably personal) to full size swords in cases to more personalize them as well.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that in India, variation was not unusual with traditional hilt forms which were in use for centuries with no notable changes in a progressive style overall. That is perhaps what is so exciting and challenging about identifying them.

[Edward F]

Does this show a timeline on hilts,Maybe I think in the early swords you can see changes over 2 or 3 hundred years.depending on the type of use the sword would have the hilt would change.Their are not that many half guard swords around so they may have come from a single area or just made for very few that wanted half guard protection or the just didn't the the rub of full guard on their hip.

[ariel]

I agree with Jim: there were 2 main tendencies with Indian handles: one purely local/tribal, and we indeed have major difficulties pinpointing their places of origin, and another, with merging of local variants with influences from another culture. IMHO, Tulwar with a side guard belongs to the latter. I have some of those, too. Again, pure IMHO, the most logical place for such collision would be Deccan.

Your archaic ones likely belong to the third group that is almost unique and where Rawson might have been correct: local progression of Old Indian into full-blown Khanda form. The D- guard of the latter was likely influenced by the European examples, but the solid shield-like guard might have been a completion of the archaic double-wing construction

I an skating on a very, very thin ice here, but the advantage of this Forum is our ability to express half-baked preliminary ideas and adjust them according to critical comments. Our entries here are not a real book, where everything needs to be researched to the minute comma.

[Katar_arms]

Originally Posted by RAMBA

I have uploaded some more images.

Just a side note, that could very well be a patterned blade, welded or better. Hilts such as these tended to be favoured by the upper classes and tended to have better blades than most. I have a very similar one with a copper dome similar to that of a pulwar that sits atop its semi-basket hilt. Would interest me to know why that is even there, I'll post pictures...eventually. First post, so still getting used to the etiquette

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is another Patissa. Western India. Probably late 15th century. Total length 100 cm, blade length 89 cm. See cat. pp. 350-353.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is another picture.