Yet another wotsit.

Kmaddock · 19th June 2019, 12:23 PM

Hi
A wild guess with nothing to substantiate it would be a sword for bull fighting?
Interesting item and the brass handle does look to have some good age to it
regards
Ken

M ELEY · 19th June 2019, 03:50 PM

Perhaps the handle is a more modern replacement? The cross guard and blade seem to show honest aging. A nice piece, but also a puzzle-

kronckew · 19th June 2019, 06:21 PM

The dealer was fairly certain the brass handle was specifically designed for balancing this piece.It could of course been a later but still antique replacement.

Doubt it was a Bull fighting sword. Too stiff & narrow. Could be a boar hunting sword tho, but they generally have wider blades. example below. These are also 'estoc'.

Victrix · 19th June 2019, 08:05 PM

Dealers may say a lot of things. The grip looks like an 18th or 19thC infantry man’s hanger. The guard looks a bit outsize but maybe just my imagination? When encountering items of brass it’s always good to consider the possibility of naval use as brass does not corrode nor rot in salt water.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2019, 02:48 AM

I think there is a compelling similarity with these alternating quillons on the guard to certain Chinese sword hilts on dadao (mostly ring pommel types) and some of the 'butterfly' knives (paired).

These types of edged weapons were used by Chinese martial artists and often security forces who worked as protective guards in various capacities and sometimes with foreign firms.

The distinct similarity to British infantry hangers is well noted in those of mid to latter 18th c. (typically regarded as M1742 and M1751 though they were in use long before these dates).
* Thomas Craven was a maker c.1800+ and the acceptance marks put the example shown about then, revealing how long these patterns remained in use in some cases.

I am unsure whether this hilt is authentically from one of these swords or copied (cast) from one, but the hilt style is as described but again, with the European pointed escutcheon in the crossguard center.

It seems possible that certain Chinese factions as mentioned did work with foreign colonial occupiers, though of course by the time of the Boxer Rebellion the weapons of foreign 'devils' were scorned. I have seen various cases of cross influence, and even British M1796 disc hilts with Chinese markings and inscriptions.

kronckew · 23rd June 2019, 08:42 AM

Interesting, I'd initially thought the guard was Chinese looking. The Brass grip looks cast to fit the guard but could have been copied as it doesn't look cut off from something else and it balances the blade nicely. The unmarked thrusting only type blade remains a bit unknown. would like to have seen the scabbard, would have answered a few questions. Thanks,Jim & y'all.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2019, 01:58 AM

Thoroughly interested in this weapon, I looked further:
Apparantly in South China, where a great deal of foreign influences converged in the regions of Canton, there were forms of Kung Fu which included use of paired edged weapons, usually knives termed 'hudie shuang dao'. These were commonly termed butterfly knives as they were typically encased in pairs but not to be confused with the Filipino folding knife (balisong).

One reference notes that some had a 'long narrow blade that emphasized stabbing" . It was noted that some of these were termed 'red boat' knives having to do with 'Red Boat' (red colored junk) opera troupes who performed as a cover while practicing as subversive revolutionaries covertly, and these kinds of weapons. The illustrated painting is not specifically shown as representing these persons, but to illustrate the variations of paired edged weapons known used by such martial artists.

In any case, during the First Opium War (1839-42) many conflicts were situated in Canton regions. Here we can see the potential for European influences, as seen as mentioned in other cases as the 'butterfly' knife sets with knuckleguard. It would not seem far fetched that these Chinese martial arts weapons might adopt other hilt features (as cast ribbed grips) as well.

While we cannot say specifically that this is one of these Chinese knives, the purpose of this information on possible Chinese association is for the benefit of evaluation by those interested here.

mariusgmioc · 27th June 2019, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

The dealer was fairly certain the brass handle was specifically designed for balancing this piece.It could of course been a later but still antique replacement.

Doubt it was a Bull fighting sword. Too stiff & narrow. Could be a boar hunting sword tho, but they generally have wider blades. example below. These are also 'estoc'.

I cannot say much about the sword in the original posting, but the one in your posting is a typical matador sword.

19th June 2019, 06:21 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	The dealer was fairly certain the brass handle was specifically designed for balancing this piece.It could of course been a later but still antique replacement. Doubt it was a Bull fighting sword. Too stiff & narrow. Could be a boar hunting sword tho, but they generally have wider blades. example below. These are also 'estoc'. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 19th June 2019 at 07:35 PM.

19th June 2019, 08:05 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	Dealers may say a lot of things. The grip looks like an 18th or 19thC infantry man’s hanger. The guard looks a bit outsize but maybe just my imagination? When encountering items of brass it’s always good to consider the possibility of naval use as brass does not corrode nor rot in salt water. Attached Images

23rd June 2019, 02:48 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I think there is a compelling similarity with these alternating quillons on the guard to certain Chinese sword hilts on dadao (mostly ring pommel types) and some of the 'butterfly' knives (paired). These types of edged weapons were used by Chinese martial artists and often security forces who worked as protective guards in various capacities and sometimes with foreign firms. The distinct similarity to British infantry hangers is well noted in those of mid to latter 18th c. (typically regarded as M1742 and M1751 though they were in use long before these dates). * Thomas Craven was a maker c.1800+ and the acceptance marks put the example shown about then, revealing how long these patterns remained in use in some cases. I am unsure whether this hilt is authentically from one of these swords or copied (cast) from one, but the hilt style is as described but again, with the European pointed escutcheon in the crossguard center. It seems possible that certain Chinese factions as mentioned did work with foreign colonial occupiers, though of course by the time of the Boxer Rebellion the weapons of foreign 'devils' were scorned. I have seen various cases of cross influence, and even British M1796 disc hilts with Chinese markings and inscriptions. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd June 2019 at 01:52 PM.

24th June 2019, 01:58 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thoroughly interested in this weapon, I looked further: Apparantly in South China, where a great deal of foreign influences converged in the regions of Canton, there were forms of Kung Fu which included use of paired edged weapons, usually knives termed 'hudie shuang dao'. These were commonly termed butterfly knives as they were typically encased in pairs but not to be confused with the Filipino folding knife (balisong). One reference notes that some had a 'long narrow blade that emphasized stabbing" . It was noted that some of these were termed 'red boat' knives having to do with 'Red Boat' (red colored junk) opera troupes who performed as a cover while practicing as subversive revolutionaries covertly, and these kinds of weapons. The illustrated painting is not specifically shown as representing these persons, but to illustrate the variations of paired edged weapons known used by such martial artists. In any case, during the First Opium War (1839-42) many conflicts were situated in Canton regions. Here we can see the potential for European influences, as seen as mentioned in other cases as the 'butterfly' knife sets with knuckleguard. It would not seem far fetched that these Chinese martial arts weapons might adopt other hilt features (as cast ribbed grips) as well. While we cannot say specifically that this is one of these Chinese knives, the purpose of this information on possible Chinese association is for the benefit of evaluation by those interested here. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th June 2019 at 03:26 AM.

19th June 2019, 12:23 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	Hi A wild guess with nothing to substantiate it would be a sword for bull fighting? Interesting item and the brass handle does look to have some good age to it regards Ken

19th June 2019, 03:50 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Perhaps the handle is a more modern replacement? The cross guard and blade seem to show honest aging. A nice piece, but also a puzzle-

23rd June 2019, 08:42 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	Interesting, I'd initially thought the guard was Chinese looking. The Brass grip looks cast to fit the guard but could have been copied as it doesn't look cut off from something else and it balances the blade nicely. The unmarked thrusting only type blade remains a bit unknown. would like to have seen the scabbard, would have answered a few questions. Thanks,Jim & y'all.