My second bugis. Options on this one please

Patje1970 · 7th June 2019, 07:28 PM

Hi all,

Bought my second bugis. I like the pamor. Seems a 9 luk if I look correct.
Pamor ? a mixed one? I have no idea how old this keris is

regards Pat

Patje1970 · 7th June 2019, 07:36 PM

And some more pictures

Jean · 7th June 2019, 09:55 PM

The blade with 9 shallow waves looks old but not Bugis IMO, but maybe from West Java?
Regards

Patje1970 · 7th June 2019, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade with 9 shallow waves looks old but not Bugis IMO, but maybe from West Java?
Regards

Hi Jean,

Can you explain why it not Bugis? I though it is a Bugis because of the urikan style

regards Pat

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2019, 11:34 PM

Yes, definitely not a Bugis blade, and very probably West Jawa.

Jean spoke first, so I'll leave the explanation to him.

Patje1970 · 8th June 2019, 07:43 AM

thanks for the information, about the region of the urikan Sulawesi ?

About the blade, what pamor is this? I asume some kind of Wos Wutah at the base. Further on the blade something else.

regards Pat

Patje1970 · 8th June 2019, 07:45 AM

other close up pamor

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2019, 08:15 AM

This is an old blade, and it has been considerably eroded. The pamor when it was new was a random pattern pamor that had been surface manipulated, perhaps something like bendo sagodo or similar. It is possibly not a good idea to give it a definite name now.

Patje1970 · 8th June 2019, 08:18 AM

According my keris book from Tammens, This keris looks like a Sumatra type. Is this correct?

Jean · 8th June 2019, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patje1970

According my keris book from Tammens, This keris looks like a Sumatra type. Is this correct?

I agree with Alan's comments, and the hilt & scabbard are probably from Sumatra indeed but not the blade.
Regards

Patje1970 · 8th June 2019, 06:13 PM

Hi Alan and Jean,

thank you for al the information.

regards Pat

Jean · 9th June 2019, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patje1970

Hi Jean,

Can you explain why it not Bugis? I though it is a Bugis because of the urikan style

regards Pat

Hello Pat,
What do you mean by urikan, is it ukiran (hilt)? IMO this blade is not Bugis for the following reasons (among others):
. The dapur with the shallow and uneven waves and the slim shape is not Bugis but rather typical of West Java.
. The pamor pattern is not typically Bugis.
. The shape of the gonjo, pejetan, and greneng is not Bugis.
Please see a similar blade on pic 1.4.69 in my kris book if you have it.
Regards

Jean · 9th June 2019, 12:49 PM

My similar blade for reference, regards.

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2019, 02:22 PM

I agree with everything Jean has written, and I would like to add a little.

For a pure Bugis blade the outstanding tell is that the blade cross section is hexagonal, the faces of the blade are wide and flat with a short, steep decline to the cutting edge.

It is probable that in the hand, both the blade under discussion and Jean's blade would be classified as Segaluh, which is a West Javanese classification.

Patje1970 · 9th June 2019, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Pat,
What do you mean by urikan, is it ukiran (hilt)? IMO this blade is not Bugis for the following reasons (among others):
. The dapur with the shallow and uneven waves and the slim shape is not Bugis but rather typical of West Java.
. The pamor pattern is not typically Bugis.
. The shape of the gonjo, pejetan, and greneng is not Bugis.
Please see a similar blade on pic 1.4.69 in my kris book if you have it.
Regards

Hi Jean, I was meaning ukiran. thank you for all the info. I will look in Holland for your book. already found an other book from you at the museum in Leiden (THE KRIS A PASSION FROM INDONESIA (188 pages, 2008)

regards Pat

Jean · 9th June 2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is probable that in the hand, both the blade under discussion and Jean's blade would be classified as Segaluh, which is a West Javanese classification.

You are correct Alan, my blade was classified as in Segaluh style, a very old West Javanese kingdom ending around 12th/13th century AD but of course it does not mean that these blades are that old

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2019, 11:48 PM

True Jean, and this mix of historic association, and geographic location is a source of ongoing misunderstanding and confusion.

Most keris blades are classified in accordance with geographic point of origin, but the name of a geographic point of origin can also refer to an era. Many people choose to understand the classification name as an historic era, rather than as a location.

7th June 2019, 07:28 PM	#1
Patje1970 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 51	My second bugis. Options on this one please Hi all, Bought my second bugis. I like the pamor. Seems a 9 luk if I look correct. Pamor ? a mixed one? I have no idea how old this keris is regards Pat Attached Images Last edited by Patje1970; 7th June 2019 at 07:43 PM. Reason: correcting title

7th June 2019, 07:36 PM	#2
Patje1970 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 51	And some more pictures Attached Images

8th June 2019, 07:43 AM	#6
Patje1970 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 51	thanks for the information, about the region of the urikan Sulawesi ? About the blade, what pamor is this? I asume some kind of Wos Wutah at the base. Further on the blade something else. regards Pat Attached Images

8th June 2019, 07:45 AM	#7
Patje1970 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 51	other close up pamor Attached Images

9th June 2019, 12:49 PM	#13
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	My similar blade for reference, regards. Attached Images

7th June 2019, 09:55 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The blade with 9 shallow waves looks old but not Bugis IMO, but maybe from West Java? Regards

7th June 2019, 11:34 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes, definitely not a Bugis blade, and very probably West Jawa. Jean spoke first, so I'll leave the explanation to him.

8th June 2019, 08:15 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	This is an old blade, and it has been considerably eroded. The pamor when it was new was a random pattern pamor that had been surface manipulated, perhaps something like bendo sagodo or similar. It is possibly not a good idea to give it a definite name now.

8th June 2019, 08:18 AM	#9
Patje1970 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 51	According my keris book from Tammens, This keris looks like a Sumatra type. Is this correct?

8th June 2019, 06:13 PM	#11
Patje1970 Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 51	Hi Alan and Jean, thank you for al the information. regards Pat

9th June 2019, 02:22 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I agree with everything Jean has written, and I would like to add a little. For a pure Bugis blade the outstanding tell is that the blade cross section is hexagonal, the faces of the blade are wide and flat with a short, steep decline to the cutting edge. It is probable that in the hand, both the blade under discussion and Jean's blade would be classified as Segaluh, which is a West Javanese classification.

9th June 2019, 11:48 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	True Jean, and this mix of historic association, and geographic location is a source of ongoing misunderstanding and confusion. Most keris blades are classified in accordance with geographic point of origin, but the name of a geographic point of origin can also refer to an era. Many people choose to understand the classification name as an historic era, rather than as a location.