Chivalry

[Tim Simmons]

lets not get too misty eyed about the old chivalry. In those days the knights were often rough blackmailers holding each other for ransom, changing allegiance when suiting, dispensers of casual and cruel justice on thier peasants living in conditions below that of thier masters beasts. I think it is also true that they did indeed have the rights to your women first if living on his estate.

[ariel]

Let's not shortchange the significance of heroism and chivalry.
Yes, wars are 99% marching, eating bad food, living in subhuman conditions and being just a very small cog in a very large machine.
But there are some of us who transcend the drudge and perform deeds that are, in effect, guideposts to human behavior. Few, if any, fantasize about being a garden variety soldier in some major encounter. Few, if any, fail to admire the courage and the nobility of Horatius on the Bridge. "Generals" sending soldiers to battle rarely enter the lore of heroism. It is the individual soldier who does. Heroism is a supremely individual achievement. A person who volunteers to risk life for his country and his comrades is a better man. A person who is magnanimous toward his vanquished enemies is a better man. A person who refuses to obey an inhuman order is a better man. And when we remember them, there is a small, still voice within our conscience: If they could do it, why can't I? This is the meaning of heroic inspiration: striving to be a better man.

To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

lets not get too misty eyed about the old chivalry. In those days the knights were often rough blackmailers holding each other for ransom, changing allegiance when suiting, dispensers of casual and cruel justice on thier peasants living in conditions below that of thier masters beasts. I think it is also true that they did indeed have the rights to your women first if living on his estate.

I don't think this thread is necessarily about knightly chivalry so much as martial valor, Tim.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I did realise that, just adding background colour .

There are records of wonderful acts of valour. To me the common soldiery of all nations in the trench life and battles of Verdun, Somme, Ypres, and so on are all heroes. Not known as Lions led by Donkeys for nothing. I just do not understand why the UK government, now it is nearly 100 years ago, cannot pardon all those shot for suppose cowardice, many brave men having been heroes in previous action just needed a rest. I think this is so sad. I know things and times were different and the summery justice issued by weary officers was often forced by the environment. A centenary pardon would go a long way to right a long forgoten wrong.

[Mark]

Since we are really speaking of the concept, not just listing examples, let me give my favorite example from literature -- Frodo Baggins!

I only recently realized that a large part of what entranced me as a youngster about the Lord of the Rings was the heroism of the most unlikely heros of the story - the hobbits. Sitting among great and powerful heros while they argued about the danger and impossibility of destroying the One Ring, Frodo gets up and says simply, "I will take the Ring to Mordor, but I do not know the way" (mercifully, one of the great lines in the book that Jackson left intact in the movie). He eventually even left behind his companions, because he did not want to endanger them - he did not hope to succeed, but still would try. By the end he was literally crawling toward his goal.

Little Frodo was not powerful, he was not wise, he was not especially brave. He did not even know where he was going. Still, there was an even greater hero in the story - his servant Sam. Sam followed out of devotion to Frodo. But in the end, Frodo failed (for those who don't know the story, he refused to destroy the Ring in the end). Sam never gave up. At one point, when he thought his master was dead, he carried on alone (though he knew even less about what to do than did Frodo). When Frodo crawled, Sam carried him. He kept the last food, the last water, for Frodo, and went without.

Frodo and Sam are characters whom Tolkein wrote to represent Everyman. Tolkein's stories were of great "heroics" by mightly warriors and wizards, fighting overwhelming odds, etc., but in his greatest work he chose to show the greatest heroism by taking the most extreme un-heroic type of person (sheltered, un-magical, complacent little guys only about a meter tall, armed with big daggers that they didn't know how to use), and placed them in the most dangerous and horrifying circumstances imaginable. Circumstances were thrust upon them, but they did what they had to do not for themselves, but for something else (Frodo had a somewhat wider understanding of saving the world from evil, but Sam did it only because of his love for Frodo).

Heroism is doing something because you have to, not literally in the physical sense, but morally or compassionately. Doing it because it was the right thing to do (not that one has time to think it all out, but I venture to say that is the motivation, even when instinctual). Generally people praised as heroes deny "having done anything," and not unfrequently confess to having been, deep down, frightened the whole time. Often it would seem that you have no choice, but in fact you always do - you can do nothing, you can give up, you can run away, you can submit to death. I think Tolkein did a wonderful job of capturing the idea of heroism in these characters.

[M.carter]

I think if we were to regard the Lord of the Rings, I would say all of the fellowship were heroes, except Boromir. Although in my opinion, Faramir is the greatest hero in my eyes.