Opinion on this blade / sword

Ivo · 1st June 2019, 12:05 PM

Hello guys, what is your opinion on this blade / sword ?

The blade I think is European, the scabbard is extremely embossed and detailed

The end of the scabbard is typical of the Balkans.

Thank you .

Ivo.

Tim Simmons · 1st June 2019, 07:08 PM

Looks a bit Burmese to me?

mariusgmioc · 1st June 2019, 08:12 PM

The blade is European or possibly Russian.

Battara · 1st June 2019, 08:33 PM

And the scabbard looks to be Ottoman.

Jim McDougall · 1st June 2019, 08:48 PM

The blade appears to be what is known as 'montmorency' cross section and was used 1790s until about 1820s on British cavalry sabres, but of course many were German made as well. I would imagine the French may have used them too. With the movement of blades naturally Russians could not be discounted either.
In any case, definitely European of that period, and I think one of the most intriguing blade patterns I have seen with that unusual stepped section at the tip. Many British blade patterns of early 19th had this 'stepped' tip often with pipeback (ribbed) backs on the blade. It was a time of considerable innovation in blades for the British as they were sampling all sorts of prototypes to establish a more effective cut and thrust blade.

I would of course defer on the mounts to you guys with that expertise, but agree that the Ottoman denominator seems pretty compelling. The heavy repousse seems to me it might have SE Asian possibility as dha's often have this kind of work, but that scabbard chape as noted seems otherwise.
On that note, I would mention that often Balkan weapons had an 'oriental' theme, and that might correspond to the Ottoman idea.

Sure seems to be a colonially mounted European blade, but more specific hard to say. Really nice! love that blade!

Ren Ren · 1st June 2019, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Looks a bit Burmese to me?

In my opinion this subject comes from British Malaya.

Battara · 1st June 2019, 10:09 PM

Many Ottoman regions used European blades, and this one seems to be a calvary blade. The scabbard toe is definitely Ottoman, and in the Balkans you do see repousse metal on scabbards.

Ivo · 1st June 2019, 10:22 PM

Yes, it is a "Ottoman" influence - according to me, and the handle is identical to the design of the scabbard .

kronckew · 2nd June 2019, 08:51 AM

Cool Sword! Not my area, but when I saw the tip of the scabbard I thought 'Turkish' Overall I thought maybe influenced by the Mongols/Tatar/etc. horseman hordes of the Steppes. The poles liked Odd sabres too!. With a metal scabbard I'd want a horse to carry it for me most of the time.

.

Kubur · 2nd June 2019, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivo

The end of the scabbard is typical of the Balkans.

Hi

Typical from the Ottomans!
Yes the blade seems to be European.
But your sword is a real problem... I have no idea...
Could be from Black sea to Algeria...

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2019, 03:38 PM

I do not know much about Ottoman forms. However I can show my thinking on this example. The sword in this attachment was sold a auction 2007. Sold as SEA in the Dutch style. Note the grip, put a Chinese style guard on and you have a similar form. As or the scabbard end, bird motifs, forms and designs are not uncommon on many SE weapons? The floral decoration also have a SEA look?

mariusgmioc · 2nd June 2019, 04:14 PM

Yet, both the shape of the hilt and the crossguard are anything but Ottoman.

Very confusing!

🤔

Jim McDougall · 2nd June 2019, 05:03 PM

While that scabbard tip is compellingly Ottoman, there remains an 'Oriental' feel to these mounts, and as I had mentioned the term 'oriental' took a broad scope in definition in the 18th into 19th c.
What has not been mentioned is the oval 'tsuba' type guard (I cannot think of the Chinese term). This curious hilt shape is also as noted, 'oriental' and I have seen it on Indonesian hilts.

I would strongly suspect this anomaly is a product of the heavily traded East Indies, where influences were melded in many ports of call, and blades from Europe were of course among commodities at hand.

Europeans had a strong desire for 'exotica' from these foreign ports, and often officers as well as sailors had weapons fashioned which brought certain degrees of joining of familiar elements of combined types. There were even Chinese artisans brought into Europe in the 18th c. during the enthusiastic desire for such oriental designs on swords, the shakudo and Tonquinese fashions.

One thing most curious in the repousse vegetal pattern on the scabbard is the lozenge pattern, which seems far more European than oriental or for that matter Ottoman. In the Ottoman matter however, this design is known to have been favored in Sudan in some decoration which had certain Islamic favor. Perhaps that might again lend to certain eastern archipelagos where Islamic influence may have been situated?

The thing we can be sure of, this is a European sabre blade of early 19th c.so the colonial and trade context suggests it was mounted in any number of locations, probably East Indies, where these oriental designs abound.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd June 2019, 06:46 PM

It has a distinctive Oriental feel to it. I looked at http://mandarinmansion.com/antique-vietnamese-swords and one that stood out was ..the Officers sword at 19thC on web page …4th from top.(sold.)

Will M · 3rd June 2019, 04:44 PM

Something about the very good blade quality and fullering that says French to me.

Tim Simmons · 3rd June 2019, 04:47 PM

If nobody can make comparisons to Balkan swords, then for me it is Indochina where many SEA forms merge.

TVV · 3rd June 2019, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

If nobody can make comparisons to Balkan swords, then for me it is Indochina where many SEA forms merge.

The decorative motives on the scabbard and the hilt are Balkan though, you can see the same on countless little bichaqs.

ariel · 3rd June 2019, 08:30 PM

The "Dolphin head" on the scabbard indeed tilts the attribution toward Ottoman empire/Balkans.
But the contour of the handle and the thin " tsuba"-like guard somehow remind me of Tonkin Vietnam.

Kubur · 3rd June 2019, 09:32 PM

You are all obsessed by the oriental style and tsuba like guard.
You are a bit like computers with 0 and 1 only...
Please look at Hales book and you will see an Ottoman naval sword with the same kind of guard...
Second the hilt is very similar to some silver flyssa and some of them have so called Ottoman scabbards...
I won't be surprised if this sword was made in Algiers...

1st June 2019, 12:05 PM	#1
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	Opinion on this blade / sword Hello guys, what is your opinion on this blade / sword ? The blade I think is European, the scabbard is extremely embossed and detailed The end of the scabbard is typical of the Balkans. Thank you . Ivo. Attached Images

2nd June 2019, 03:38 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not know much about Ottoman forms. However I can show my thinking on this example. The sword in this attachment was sold a auction 2007. Sold as SEA in the Dutch style. Note the grip, put a Chinese style guard on and you have a similar form. As or the scabbard end, bird motifs, forms and designs are not uncommon on many SE weapons? The floral decoration also have a SEA look? Attached Images

3rd June 2019, 09:32 PM	#19
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	You are all obsessed by the oriental style and tsuba like guard. You are a bit like computers with 0 and 1 only... Please look at Hales book and you will see an Ottoman naval sword with the same kind of guard... Second the hilt is very similar to some silver flyssa and some of them have so called Ottoman scabbards... I won't be surprised if this sword was made in Algiers... Attached Images

1st June 2019, 07:08 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks a bit Burmese to me?

1st June 2019, 08:12 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	The blade is European or possibly Russian.

1st June 2019, 08:33 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	And the scabbard looks to be Ottoman.

1st June 2019, 08:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	The blade appears to be what is known as 'montmorency' cross section and was used 1790s until about 1820s on British cavalry sabres, but of course many were German made as well. I would imagine the French may have used them too. With the movement of blades naturally Russians could not be discounted either. In any case, definitely European of that period, and I think one of the most intriguing blade patterns I have seen with that unusual stepped section at the tip. Many British blade patterns of early 19th had this 'stepped' tip often with pipeback (ribbed) backs on the blade. It was a time of considerable innovation in blades for the British as they were sampling all sorts of prototypes to establish a more effective cut and thrust blade. I would of course defer on the mounts to you guys with that expertise, but agree that the Ottoman denominator seems pretty compelling. The heavy repousse seems to me it might have SE Asian possibility as dha's often have this kind of work, but that scabbard chape as noted seems otherwise. On that note, I would mention that often Balkan weapons had an 'oriental' theme, and that might correspond to the Ottoman idea. Sure seems to be a colonially mounted European blade, but more specific hard to say. Really nice! love that blade!

1st June 2019, 10:09 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Many Ottoman regions used European blades, and this one seems to be a calvary blade. The scabbard toe is definitely Ottoman, and in the Balkans you do see repousse metal on scabbards.

1st June 2019, 10:22 PM	#8
Ivo Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 38	Yes, it is a "Ottoman" influence - according to me, and the handle is identical to the design of the scabbard .

2nd June 2019, 08:51 AM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Cool Sword! Not my area, but when I saw the tip of the scabbard I thought 'Turkish' Overall I thought maybe influenced by the Mongols/Tatar/etc. horseman hordes of the Steppes. The poles liked Odd sabres too!. With a metal scabbard I'd want a horse to carry it for me most of the time. .

2nd June 2019, 04:14 PM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yet, both the shape of the hilt and the crossguard are anything but Ottoman. Very confusing! 🤔

2nd June 2019, 05:03 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	While that scabbard tip is compellingly Ottoman, there remains an 'Oriental' feel to these mounts, and as I had mentioned the term 'oriental' took a broad scope in definition in the 18th into 19th c. What has not been mentioned is the oval 'tsuba' type guard (I cannot think of the Chinese term). This curious hilt shape is also as noted, 'oriental' and I have seen it on Indonesian hilts. I would strongly suspect this anomaly is a product of the heavily traded East Indies, where influences were melded in many ports of call, and blades from Europe were of course among commodities at hand. Europeans had a strong desire for 'exotica' from these foreign ports, and often officers as well as sailors had weapons fashioned which brought certain degrees of joining of familiar elements of combined types. There were even Chinese artisans brought into Europe in the 18th c. during the enthusiastic desire for such oriental designs on swords, the shakudo and Tonquinese fashions. One thing most curious in the repousse vegetal pattern on the scabbard is the lozenge pattern, which seems far more European than oriental or for that matter Ottoman. In the Ottoman matter however, this design is known to have been favored in Sudan in some decoration which had certain Islamic favor. Perhaps that might again lend to certain eastern archipelagos where Islamic influence may have been situated? The thing we can be sure of, this is a European sabre blade of early 19th c.so the colonial and trade context suggests it was mounted in any number of locations, probably East Indies, where these oriental designs abound.

2nd June 2019, 06:46 PM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It has a distinctive Oriental feel to it. I looked at http://mandarinmansion.com/antique-vietnamese-swords and one that stood out was ..the Officers sword at 19thC on web page …4th from top.(sold.)

3rd June 2019, 04:44 PM	#15
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Something about the very good blade quality and fullering that says French to me.

3rd June 2019, 04:47 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	If nobody can make comparisons to Balkan swords, then for me it is Indochina where many SEA forms merge.

3rd June 2019, 08:30 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The "Dolphin head" on the scabbard indeed tilts the attribution toward Ottoman empire/Balkans. But the contour of the handle and the thin " tsuba"-like guard somehow remind me of Tonkin Vietnam.