Jamdhar katari - a theory

[Jim McDougall]

Bob, thank you for the thoughtful and well expressed explanation, and now I can see we are pretty much on the same page.
There has always been a degree of confusion on these pages, mostly simple misunderstandings or that often people post without reading what has previously been said. With threads of this size and duration it is understandable as few care to read back through sometimes years of dialogue.

While I have reread this thread I overlooked the jamadhar katari that you mention and your well placed observation on the similar holds of this and the katar. Actually that was what I had I mind when I posted the image of the Kafir man holding one of these.

As I had described earlier, my research on the Kafirs began nearly 20 years ago with a colleague in Germany researching their axes. I became even more intrigued by watching the movie "Man Who Would be King" based on Kipling's writing and focused on Kafiristan.

Later I became connected with a Kalash man here in the US but intent on preserving the culture and language of his people now in Chitral.

The chilanum comparison is a fair one, and these jamadhar katari have some resemblance, but as you note, the chilanum is it seems farther south.

The jamadhar katari, though I regret having to defer to the maddening name game, I think we need to clear up.

These are actually 'katarah' (jamadhar thing is totally Egerton)….and the katar (transverse grips) is a jamadhar. With katar, the term has become too 'died in the wool' to change, so we keep calling them that.

With the KATARAH, these are little known and unlikely to cause great disturbance in the collectors lexicon by using this simpler term instead of the compound.

These have been around for some time, and I have even seen examples with the Afghan state seal etc. As with most traditional weapons, earlier ones were of course more utilitarian, becoming less so and more decorative in recent times.

The Hindu Kush regions of Afghanistan to the east are where the lands of these people historically were termed Kafiristan, but after subjugation by Abdur Rahman in 1890s, were named Nuristan.
The Kalash people primarily in Chitral are deemed loosely aligned with the Kafirs, but more research needed there. Diffusion in these regions is of course complex.

Hopefully what I have noted may help in some degree, and clearly I need to retrace these details myself again..its been too many years.

[ariel]

I am with Fernando.
Mahratta irregular cavalry was a very disorganized bunch: none of the British Light Brigade iron discipline or Mongolian tightly coordinated feint attacks. They just rode full gallop without any order, clashed with the opposing force , slashed two or three times , and turned back full speed. Their mass-produced Patas ( Portuguese “paws”? Fernando, how am I doing?) were very flexible , designed to slash and bounce, distantly reminiscent of South Indian/ Sri Lankan Urumi.
My Pata is so flexible, that if an opponent tries to parry the cut with his sword, my blade will just bend around it and hit him behind the block.

These attacks must have left behind very few dead , but multiple wounded and disabled men and horses.

[ariel]

This particular name game ( jamadhar vs. katar) is not very productive unless based on extremely thorough knowledge of Great Indian linguistics.
Currently, Indian government accepts 22 official languages and 6 special ones. Overall, there are 122 major languages, and 1599 “other” languages.
Thirty languages are spoken by more than a million “native speakers”, and 122 by more than 10,000. How many simply vanished over the past 1000 years is a scary thought.

Different weapons might have been given similarly sounding names and same weapons - differently sounding ones. Mysore/ Haiderabadi Bich’hwa, Baku from Kannada and Marathi Vinchu - are the same weapon. So is Jamdhar and Katar, but in different locations. Add to it transliterations by the British: Seilawa in Afghanistan and sailaba in Deccan, - almost identical weapons, but the former one became known as Khyber knife, and the latter is so esoteric, that only devoted readers of Elgood’s Glossary know what it means.

These questions must be left to professional linguists who, on top of their deep knowledge of languages, are thoroughly familiar with long and complicated history of India, population migrations, conquests, subjugations etc., as well as with weapons themselves. This is a tall order, but anything less than that will only lead to embarrassing “ discoveries” . We have had some of those published here and that’s enough already.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Their mass-produced Patas ( Portuguese “paws”? Fernando, how am I doing?) were very flexible , designed to slash and bounce, distantly reminiscent of South Indian/ Sri Lankan Urumi...

Well said Ariel ... the translation, but not the attribution, i am afraid.
I would rather tend to the version in which the patá (पट) comes from the "Pathans, a subdivision of the Kchatrya cast, or Indian warriors, devoted to military life, in his fatherland as in other nations" (Friar Sebastião Manrique 1590 -1669). But i wouldn't put my hand on the chopping block for that ... even my (already) chopped off one .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Are we now discussing patas, should they not be discussed on another thread?

[fernando]

Don't get upset Jens; diverting a bit doesn't hurt ! We are still in Indian weapons .
Back on track, then .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hmmm - may be.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Jens, this discussion has gone 'nomadic' wandering off into the realm of the khanda and pata, which can be traced to the comment by Ariel (#214) noting the use of 'fragments of European rapiers' mounted in South Indian katars.

This comment developed 'legs' with my note (#223)in response suggesting that these katars noted were mounted indeed with fragments of European blades, but NOT of rapiers but full size arming blades. What took the wind was that I suggested that instances of use of the mounting of the thin rapier blades (fencing type) were likely for prestigious court weapons such as some khanda. I admit that I cannot now recall a khanda (firangi) with such a rapier blade.

Fernando (#225) then notes not to forget the pata with' European' blades (quoting my comment on rapier blades).

The discussion then devolves into the non sequiter debate on the skills and dexterity of Indian swordsmen with the pata, loosing track of the 'rapier' blade matter which brought these weapons into the mix.

I would simply say here, my mention of European 'rapier' blades was toward the VERY thin and narrow blades of 'rapiers' , those of swept hilt and cup hilt form, which were intended for civilian wear, and use in fencing (duels) etc.
These were NOT used as a rule in combat situations for obvious reasons, presumably these were so thin and narrow they would snap in the type of action required. I anxiously await being shown that description invalid.

Getting to the often contentious name game, the term rapier was often indiscriminately applied to swords in these times which had similar type hilts but the blades were much wider and more substantial (arming blades).

My remark on khanda or pata hilts with rapier blades as 'prestigious' character weapons may have been too broadly placed...…...and the references I have found note (usually pata) mounted with such 'rapier' blades (the exact character in heft unknown) were often used in demonstrations of skill of use, but not in field combat. It was noted that it was surprising that these were not more widely adopted (Pant).

I hope that will effectively close the rapier/pata /khanda chapter in this discussion on the JAMADHAR/KITARI, and that Bob and readers will accept my apologies for perpetuating the irrelevant 'rapier' issue.