Nimcha: opinions and translations?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th May 2019, 11:40 PM

I agree Genoa fits … as I noted earlier there is often a little button about two thirds the way down the knuckle guard with writing on it...this weapon has one... cant make out the letters but it could be a date or makers mark... great to see this thread still going..

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2019, 04:35 AM

It is indeed good to see this thread come up again, and most interesting sword which appears to be possibly what remains of a 'nimcha' of North Africa. The quillons of course do not seem exactly the same, but there were numbers of variant hilt systems.While the markings seem to have the triple dots and configuration of what is typically regarded as the 'sickle mark' of Genoa, this marking in variation was widely copied by other blade making centers.

It seems that blade making centers in Styria much favored these marks and applied them to their blades. It is known that Austrian blades had gained much favor in North Africa by the 19th c. and many filtered into entrepots there, so seeing them on nimchas was not unusual.

It is difficult however to imagine how a nimcha (if this indeed is one of these) with Styrian blade, ended up in the Russian Black Sea region. Genoa had diminished in its colonies and blade traffic by the 18th c. and while the reputation and of course influences lingered on, many of the blades were now typically produced elsewhere for trade.

We might surmise that Barbary Pirates and trade interaction in the Mediterranean might have networked this sword into the context in which it was found, but that would remain an assumption.

TVV · 27th May 2019, 08:24 AM

The Ottoman Empire had significant presence along the North-East Black Sea Coast so it is not improbable that a Maghreb blade from the far western reaches of the Empire in Africa would travel all the way to the Black Sea during Ottoman naval activities. Interesting find.

Evgeny_K · 27th May 2019, 04:52 PM

This form of the crossguard is specific to Moroccan sabers? Could it be a Genoese sword (not only the blade)?
Here are some additional pics of markings.

Kubur · 27th May 2019, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

This form of the crossguard is specific to Moroccan sabers? Could it be a Genoese sword (not only the blade)?

You're right.
Moroccan swords have 3 quillons down.
The tang should be thinner, straight without peg holes.
The sword presented here had a grip made of two pieces of horn like Turkish swords or Caucasian kindjals.
Conclusion either you have an Italian sword or a local sword with an Italian blade.

Evgeny_K · 27th May 2019, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

You're right.
Moroccan swords have 3 quillons down.
The tang should be thinner, straight without peg holes.
The sword presented here had a grip made of two pieces of horn like Turkish swords or Caucasian kindjals.
Conclusion either you have an Italian sword or a local sword with an Italian blade.

Thank you! "Genoese version" is confirmed by the fact that this sword was found at the alleged location of the Genoese trading post of the Copa.

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2019, 09:45 PM

Thank you Evgeny for that vital bit of data with suggested provenance for this sword, which helps a great deal.
Here I would note that 'Copa' (Slavyansk na Kubani) which is actually located on the Protoka tributary of the Kuban R.) was indeed a Genoan trade colony from early 15th c. for the prominent Jewish Genoan family de Ghisolfi.
However these regions in the Taman Peninsula were seized by the Crimean Khanate in 1483, and these settlements largely abandoned until the Khanate built a fort in the 'Copa' area in 1747.

In 1783, the Ottomans took over.

This seems to be well in accord with Teodor's note on the possibility of a Maghrebi sword as far east as these Black Sea regions, thus quite feasible.
While the quillons on this example (and the tang holes in the blade) may not be entirely in line with most 'nimcha' examples, it must be remembered that these Maghreb swords typically used European blades.

In looking at the possibility of this being a Genoan sword in entirety, I looked at "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) and found three 17th c. Italian swords (#543,44, 547) with similar quillon arrangements. While similar they are not necessarily convincing.

The Maghrebi nimcha did evolve from Italian hilt forms it seems, and there are variations of both their prototypes as well as those in North Africa. There are differences in the number of quillons beween Moroccan and Algerian (if I recall Louis-Pierre's paper) not to mention those with guard ring, pitons etc.

If the Genoan character in this region was diminished as reflected by the history of this area as described, especially by the 18th century period which seems to be that of this sword, then why would it be Genoan? The seeds for such influences had widely diffused into these areas as well as into the Caucusus (the 'gurda' sickle marks on Chechen blades).

By 1783, it sounds as if the Ottoman presence and ultimate conquest of this area (and others in Black Sea) was profound thus the presence of a Maghrebi sword in this context and period sounds quite logical.

The similarity to the North Italian (not necessarily Genoan) hilt forms shown is notable, as well as the fuller character is much as seen on many Italian blades of the 17th into 18th c.However, it must be remembered that the earlier import of blades from Italy (often Genoa) into the Maghreb had become such a tradition many blades were simply labeled 'Genoan' even if they weren't.

I remain with the idea that Genoan classification to this sword is not necessarily the case just because the area was once a Genoan trade location, and the find is more likely to have come from Ottoman presence there in events and actions of the 18th c.

The attached are images of the Italian swords (17th c) and two examples of Maghrebi nimchas. The guard of the sword discussed may have had the 'outer quillon' broken off.

27th May 2019, 04:52 PM	#4
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	This form of the crossguard is specific to Moroccan sabers? Could it be a Genoese sword (not only the blade)? Here are some additional pics of markings. Attached Images

27th May 2019, 09:45 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,449	Thank you Evgeny for that vital bit of data with suggested provenance for this sword, which helps a great deal. Here I would note that 'Copa' (Slavyansk na Kubani) which is actually located on the Protoka tributary of the Kuban R.) was indeed a Genoan trade colony from early 15th c. for the prominent Jewish Genoan family de Ghisolfi. However these regions in the Taman Peninsula were seized by the Crimean Khanate in 1483, and these settlements largely abandoned until the Khanate built a fort in the 'Copa' area in 1747. In 1783, the Ottomans took over. This seems to be well in accord with Teodor's note on the possibility of a Maghrebi sword as far east as these Black Sea regions, thus quite feasible. While the quillons on this example (and the tang holes in the blade) may not be entirely in line with most 'nimcha' examples, it must be remembered that these Maghreb swords typically used European blades. In looking at the possibility of this being a Genoan sword in entirety, I looked at "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) and found three 17th c. Italian swords (#543,44, 547) with similar quillon arrangements. While similar they are not necessarily convincing. The Maghrebi nimcha did evolve from Italian hilt forms it seems, and there are variations of both their prototypes as well as those in North Africa. There are differences in the number of quillons beween Moroccan and Algerian (if I recall Louis-Pierre's paper) not to mention those with guard ring, pitons etc. If the Genoan character in this region was diminished as reflected by the history of this area as described, especially by the 18th century period which seems to be that of this sword, then why would it be Genoan? The seeds for such influences had widely diffused into these areas as well as into the Caucusus (the 'gurda' sickle marks on Chechen blades). By 1783, it sounds as if the Ottoman presence and ultimate conquest of this area (and others in Black Sea) was profound thus the presence of a Maghrebi sword in this context and period sounds quite logical. The similarity to the North Italian (not necessarily Genoan) hilt forms shown is notable, as well as the fuller character is much as seen on many Italian blades of the 17th into 18th c.However, it must be remembered that the earlier import of blades from Italy (often Genoa) into the Maghreb had become such a tradition many blades were simply labeled 'Genoan' even if they weren't. I remain with the idea that Genoan classification to this sword is not necessarily the case just because the area was once a Genoan trade location, and the find is more likely to have come from Ottoman presence there in events and actions of the 18th c. The attached are images of the Italian swords (17th c) and two examples of Maghrebi nimchas. The guard of the sword discussed may have had the 'outer quillon' broken off. Attached Images

26th May 2019, 11:40 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I agree Genoa fits … as I noted earlier there is often a little button about two thirds the way down the knuckle guard with writing on it...this weapon has one... cant make out the letters but it could be a date or makers mark... great to see this thread still going.. Ibrahiim al Balooshi

27th May 2019, 04:35 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,449	It is indeed good to see this thread come up again, and most interesting sword which appears to be possibly what remains of a 'nimcha' of North Africa. The quillons of course do not seem exactly the same, but there were numbers of variant hilt systems.While the markings seem to have the triple dots and configuration of what is typically regarded as the 'sickle mark' of Genoa, this marking in variation was widely copied by other blade making centers. It seems that blade making centers in Styria much favored these marks and applied them to their blades. It is known that Austrian blades had gained much favor in North Africa by the 19th c. and many filtered into entrepots there, so seeing them on nimchas was not unusual. It is difficult however to imagine how a nimcha (if this indeed is one of these) with Styrian blade, ended up in the Russian Black Sea region. Genoa had diminished in its colonies and blade traffic by the 18th c. and while the reputation and of course influences lingered on, many of the blades were now typically produced elsewhere for trade. We might surmise that Barbary Pirates and trade interaction in the Mediterranean might have networked this sword into the context in which it was found, but that would remain an assumption.

27th May 2019, 08:24 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	The Ottoman Empire had significant presence along the North-East Black Sea Coast so it is not improbable that a Maghreb blade from the far western reaches of the Empire in Africa would travel all the way to the Black Sea during Ottoman naval activities. Interesting find.