Chivalry

[Ian]

Ariel:

April 25 is just a few days away -- ANZAC Day in my home country of Australia. We celebrate this day with great reverence and pride. No Australian is allowed to reach the age of six (first year in grade school) without knowing about the incredible bravery of the Australian, New Zealand and British forces who gave their lives gallantly in a noble but hopeless fight, and of the Turks who suffered huge casualties as well. We regard this date as commemorating the birth of our nation, just as July 4th is remembered here.

How many nations celebrate a military catastrophe as their crowning national moment? It is all about unselfish sacrifice and serving one's country -- in short, nationalism. Even though the last surviving ANZAC soldier died a few years ago, no Australian would allow themselves to forget the spirit of the ANZAC soldier, or would harbor any animosity to the noble enemy who inflicted the death and destruction and suffered so much death and destruction too.

Ian.

P.S. If you want some stories of heroism, look up the list of those who received posthumous awards of the Victoria Cross at Gallipoli. The tale of Private Simpson and his donkey is particularly informative.

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps, the most touching is the letter Ataturk (who defeated the British forces at Gallipoli), sent to the families of the fallen ANZAC soldiers.

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives... You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours... you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land, they have become our sons as well."

The Australians erected a memorial to Ataturk in Canberra on which these words are engraved.

Say what you want, guys, but these people are awe inspiring.

[ariel]

October 25, 1854 witnessed a quick succession of 3 heroic military operations by the British Army at Balaclava, but how different they were!
The Charge of the Heavy Brigade under William Simpson and, especially, the Thin Red Line under Colin Campbell were deeds worthy of legends. The Charge of the Light Brigade was an unmitigated slaughter, a narcissistic fantasy of Cardigan who needlessly killed more than 500 of his men just to share the laurels with Simpson and Campbell.
But no matter what, the bravery of the Brits on that day was unsurpassable.

Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

[micas]

The bravery of the Brits on that day is surpassable because such military blunders have been repeated. Correct me if I'm wrong but cowardice in the British Army in those days would get you shot?

While you're at it, you might as well praise the Persians' unsurpassable bravery for being forced to charge at well-positioned, heavily armored Greeks at the narrow pass of Thermopylae.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by micas

The bravery of the Brits on that day is surpassable because such military blunders have been repeated. Correct me if I'm wrong but cowardice in the British Army in those days would get you shot?

While you're at it, you might as well praise the Persians' unsurpassable bravery for being forced to charge at well-positioned, heavily armored Greeks at the narrow pass of Thermopylae.

Micas , I'm surprised at your somewhat vehement reaction to this thread .

In most armies cowards in battle were executed were they not ?

When it boils down to the bottom of the pot you're fighting for the guy on either side of you ; your comrad in arms .
Soldiers generally go where they're told and do what they're ordered to do and they do it because they don't want to let down the guy next to them .

[micas]

Didn't know I was being vehement but I'm guessing it might be construed that way.

The point I was making is that "real" bravery would be someone making a decision to risk their lives, personal security without being forced into it and without an audience to shame them into bravery or the promise of fame.

Just recently I watched a documentary by Werner Herzog titled "Grizzly Man". It was about some guy who wanted to be "one with the grizzlies" and in the end was eaten by them along with his girlfriend (who feared the bears). The last moments were captured on audio and it shows how the girlfriend, despite her obvious fear, tried to drive the bear away from her boyfriend who had been mauled. The boyfriend was pleading for her to run away but she tried to save him and subsequently killed as well in an isolated part of Alaska.

These acts of personal bravery are worth more than the courage of following orders to attack a fortified position. I value that woman more for her decency as a human being.

[Rick]

Micas , in my opinion they were both idiots . Grizzlies are not sentient beings ; if you're smaller than them then you are potentially a meal ; it's just that simple in my view . I commend the man's female friend for trying to save him ; still to put oneself in the position of being a snack for a large bear shows an extreme lack of common sense .

One of my ancestors showed up for the battle of Bunker (Breed's) Hill ; he was a teenaged boy and manned the trenches with his older neighbors trying to repel the British troops threatening Boston . Young Eleazor French lost his arm to a cannonball during that battle ; he carried the severed limb back to his home in Dunstable after the fight because he was damned if he would leave anything for the redcoats to gloat over .
Was he a hero or a damnfool kid ?
I really don't know ; maybe he showed up to defend his country or maybe just for the thrill of the fight ; either way he showed up and became a part of history .

[micas]

What the woman did was brave regardless of their idiot action being there in the first place which was not the point I was making. If you want to go there we can go into the whole idiocy of war. But I've had that conversation before and it's something I'd prefer to avoid along with talks about politics and religion

[ariel]

Originally Posted by micas

The bravery of the Brits on that day is surpassable because such military blunders have been repeated. Correct me if I'm wrong but cowardice in the British Army in those days would get you shot?

While you're at it, you might as well praise the Persians' unsurpassable bravery for being forced to charge at well-positioned, heavily armored Greeks at the narrow pass of Thermopylae.

Yes, with a meager force of ~300,000 to charge all 300 of them! Bravery, indeed....
Especially disgraceful was the behavior of the Persians after they found the body of Leonidas: Xerxes ordered to cut off his head and to crucify his body. Compare with Ataturk.